Kevin Brown: Rolling with good and bad luck, applying yourself when it matters and when hot desks got lost in translation.

Kevin has spent his entire career to date in the automotive industry in a variety of increasingly senior roles with OEMs, service providers and the automotive practices of major consulting firms.  

We talk about why, following graduation, he chose to join Austin Rover and why he ultimately chose to leave, his experiences in professional services with KPMG and the incredible customer service ethos at the RAC. He shares moments of good and bad luck that shaped his career.  

Kevin is the leader who first took a chance on me and accepted me into our industry at the age of 28, when I had no previous automotive experience. You'll hear how I may have given him cause to question his decision on my very first day. I'll always be grateful for his open minded attitude to hiring and the opportunities that his decision opened up for me. I'm pleased to be able to celebrate his career and to introduce him to you in this episode and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. 

If you enjoy listening to my guests career stories, please follow CAREER-VIEW MIRROR in your podcast app.  

You can contact Kevin via LinkedIn. 

Why not follow us on Instagram @careerviewmirror where you can see a directory of all our episodes and comment on those you have enjoyed? 

This episode of CAREER-VIEW MIRROR is brought to you by Aquilae.  

Aquilae's mission is to enable Fulfilling Performance in the mobility industry.  

We use our very own Fulfilling Performance paradigm to identify what steps you need to take to enable Fulfilling Performance in your business.  

We leverage our Aquilae Consulting arm for business topics and the Aquilae Academy for people topics. 

And, once we're agreed on the way forward, we work alongside you and your teams to enable Fulfilling Performance and achieve your goals. 

I explain Fulfilling Performance in more detail in Episode 60 of CAREER-VIEW MIRROR which is a short Side Mirror episode. 

If you enjoy CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, please follow us in your podcast app. 

Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk 

Episode recorded on 13 October 2022 

Transcript

Kevin Brown: 0:00

I was always interested in in cars. In fact my mum says that I could recognise a Ford Anglia 105e before I could recognise her

Andy: 0:13

Welcome to Career-view Mirror, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers so far, sharing insights to help you with your own journey. I'm your host Andy Follows. Kevin Brown listeners. Kevin has spent his entire career to date in the automotive industry in a variety of increasingly senior roles with OEMs, service providers and the automotive practices of major consulting firms. We talk about why, following graduation, he chose to join Austin Rover and why he ultimately chose to leave. His experiences in professional services with KPMG and the incredible customer service ethos at the RAC. He shares moments of good and bad luck that shaped his career. Kevin is the leader who first took a chance on me and accepted me into our industry at the age of 28 when I had no previous automotive experience. You'll hear how I may have given him cause to question his decision on my very first day. I'll always be grateful for his open minded attitude to hiring and the opportunities that his decision opened up for me. I'm pleased to be able to celebrate his career and to introduce him to you in this episode, and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. If you enjoy listening to my guests career stories, please follow Career-view Mirror in your podcast app.

Aquilae Academy: 1:53

This episode of Career-view Mirror is brought to you by the Aquilae Academy. At the Academy we turn individual development into a team sport. We bring together small groups of leaders from non competing organisations to form their very own academy team. We build strong connection between team members and create a great environment for sharing and learning. We introduce the team to content that can help them tackle their current challenges. And we hold them accountable to take the actions that they decide at their priorities. We say we hold our team members feet to the fire of their best intentions. We do this internationally with teams across the world. If you'd like to learn more about the Academy, go to www.aquilae.co.uk

Andy: 2:41

Hello, Kevin, and welcome. Where are you coming to us from today?

Kevin Brown: 2:46

Andy, I'm coming from a place called Wellesbourne which is near Warwick,

Andy: 2:50

beautiful, beautiful part of the UK and also that area's quite densely populated with automotive talent isn't it, we might touch on that. So thank you very much for joining me, a bit of a special episode this one which is it will become apparent in due course. But where did your journey start? Let's start with that. Where were you born? And where did you grow up?

Kevin Brown: 3:14

I was born as funnily enough, I was born in Stretton in South London at my grandmother's house apparently my my mum went to see her mum and I came early. So I was born. I was born in my grandmother's bedroom.

Andy: 3:33

And where it was home, though, when you were born

kevin: 3:35

home was placed to South Norwood in South London. And we lived there until I was about 13 and then moved to Kent with my dad's job. And it was a very nice place. Yes,

Andy: 3:48

yeah. And what was your dad's job?

Kevin Brown: 3:51

My dad worked for several companies in plant hire, renting out JCB's and cranes and stuff, which actually is quite similar to the car rental industry, which I got into, as you know, quite a lot later.

Andy: 4:06

Right. So it's, he was renting out those sort of things that boys usually find quite fascinating. And what about your mum? What did you see her doing?

Kevin Brown: 4:19

My mum's a hairdresser, and she has a couple of quite high profile successes in that she once worked for the Tiller Girls, and in particular, Mrs. Betty Maxwell, the wife of Robert Maxwell.

Andy: 4:38

Wow. Okay, so the Tiller Girls, for our international listeners, can you say a little bit about who the Tiller Girls

Kevin Brown: 4:44

The Tiller girls were a famous dance group of were. young lady ladies who were a little bit risky, shall we say, who performed in London

Andy: 4:54

Right. Okay. And Betty Maxwell wife of Robert Maxwell, presumably globally famous or infamous? I would say he must be well known father of Ghislaine. he was the father of Ghislaine Maxwell who's quite well known as well these days. Okay, brothers and sisters?

Kevin Brown: 5:16

Got two brothers, or had two brothers. Unfortunately one of them passed away earlier this year. Yeah. So

Andy: 5:22

sorry to hear that, Kevin. What I was also going to because I always like to get a little bit of picture of what childhood was like, so happy times for you

Kevin Brown: 5:33

Pretty much. Yes, pretty much. I had a comfortable upbringing and enjoyed myself really. A lot of good friends that I've still got which I've known from my school boy days. And yeah, it was a pleasant upbringing. On the whole.

Andy: 5:51

Yeah. And as a student what, what was what were you like at school?

Kevin Brown: 5:56

At school I was a well, I was a bit lazy to be honest. I, yeah, I probably did better than I deserved. I was always very good at exams. Yeah. And that rather helped me because I was a bit lazy when it came to general schoolwork.

Andy: 6:15

And did you lean towards particular topics?

Kevin Brown: 6:18

Yes, I did. I was much more interested in theoretical stuff, rather than actuarial stuff. So I enjoyed things like the history and politics rather than sciences.

Andy: 6:32

So when you were coming towards the end of school, what sort of ideas did you have, if any about what direction you wanted to go into?

Kevin Brown: 6:43

business. My father was in business. And I, you know, I really thought that's what I want to do. And so I applied to a number of universities to do a business studies course, and was accepted on my first choice, which I was very pleased about, which was Manchester University, or UMIS, as it was in those days. And that was my very clear ambition. And that's what I carried on to do. So. Hopefully, it wasn't such a bad idea, after all,

Andy: 7:15

no, and did you find then that once you got there, did your attitude and your work ethic change versus how you were at school? You said you were a bity lazy at school

Kevin Brown: 7:25

I'm afraid to say not really

Andy: 7:34

That's not the most well positioned question from me, but I'm just conscious of our hard working you were when I first met you. So at some point, you've got any hard working and I'm just curious when it was?

Kevin Brown: 7:45

Well, that's a very good question. You know, I suppose, Andy, that the answer is that I got very hard working when I needed to. So for example, when exams are coming up, I got the exams through when I needed to get an essay done I got the essay done. And I think the same thing transfers to business in that when things need to be done, they got done. And I got done pretty well, actually. But when things didn't need to be done, I wasn't I wasn't wandering around thinking now what can I do?

Andy: 8:20

Right? Okay. We'll come on to that in due course. So how was your experience at university once you got in to do Business

Kevin Brown: 8:27

I had a lovely time at University, I fell in with a good bunch of people who were very similarly minded. And we shared a house for two years, I was in in halls the first year, but second couple of years, we share a house, and it went very well. We were all you know, a similar sort of outlook. And they've all gone to do very good things, which I'm, you know, quite interested in.

Andy: 8:54

Yeah. And when you were getting towards the end of your university days, were you working out what you wanted to do then?

Kevin Brown: 9:01

I had a pretty good idea that I wanted to go into the motor industry, to be honest. It's something that I've always been interested in. And I went through the milk round as they used to have in those days, and secured number of interviews with with car companies and, and others a few others as well. So that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to be in business, first of all, and motor industry was what really attracted me.

Andy: 9:31

Yeah, I wish I thought that at that point. I mean, this isn't about me, but just that bit resonates, because I would have liked to have, you know, it would have been helpful if I worked that out about seven years earlier. But anyway, there you were.

Kevin Brown: 9:48

And you did Andy, so well done you

Andy: 9:50

Got there eventually. But you had a number of opportunities then did you coming out of those milk rounds and do you know where you're desire to be in the car industry emanated from was that from your dad's plant, you know, seeing the plant or was it hobbies or?

Kevin Brown: 10:06

I was always interested in in cars. In fact, my mum says that I could recognise a Ford Anglia 105e before I could recognise her.So that's how far back it goes. ridiculous, isn't it? And, and I, you know, I used to read all the magazines and look at all the television programmes and so forth. It was just one of those things I was very, very interested in. And when opportunities came along, I, I put my hat in the ring with all sorts of car manufacturers at the end of the university time. And I had a few options. But the one I went was with was Austin Rover who became Rover Group, with the MG Rover and so forth.

Andy: 10:59

Yeah, very good. So tell me then, leaving university living with friends in Manchester, having a fun time. And then finally getting into the world of work and picking Austin Rover, what made you choose Austin Rover?

Kevin Brown: 11:14

I tell you, what's interesting, is good question, actually Andy, the people. I just liked the people, I had a conversation with Ford, and with a couple other companies as well outside the motor industry, but they're just I just liked the people, basically, they were very positive, very friendly, and with a very clear idea what they wanted to do. Whereas a lot of the other people were, I'm not quite sure what the word is. But they were very ordinary. And corporate. No, but I love the people at Austin Rover, and I thought they were great. And I thought I'd rather work with these people.

Andy: 11:52

Okay, so that sounds like a good reason. And that what was your experience, like when you got inside?

Kevin Brown: 11:58

It was great. I mean, I was given some authority fairly early on. I mean, as a lot of young people joining firms do was sort of passed around various organisational departments, but I spent six months going around and do various bits and pieces, meaningful work. And then I got my first proper job up in Manchester, which was fantastic. So I was very, very pleased with my early times there

Andy: 12:23

was a formal programme then, was it like a Graduate Programme.

Kevin Brown: 12:26

It was a Graduate Programme. I mean, it was formal programme, but it didn't feel like I was being sort of regimented into the organisation. So I was, you know, I had a month here and a month there, but given proper jobs to do proper tasks that you know had proper outputs.

Andy: 12:45

And then what was the first proper role that you got?

Kevin Brown: 12:48

First proper role was working at the Manchester office, but it was a area sales manager in Yorkshire, selling to large corporates. And it was one of my strokes of luck and I've had quite a few strokes of luck along way, and the stroke of luck I had was that when I was a graduate trainee and applied for my first job, I applied for a job it was the same thing in South London, and I didn't get the job. But I was given some feedback. Said you did pretty well, but perhaps you're a bit inexperienced. However, if you want to go to Yorkshire, there's a job for you there. So I went home, and talked to my, my wife and said, I'd been offered this job in Yorkshire, but we were living in London at the time. And she said, Well, let's go for it then. So we did. And that's how I went up to Yorkshire and I had a fantastic time. It was a great job. I really, really enjoyed it. Great experience, and very mind broadening seeing lots of different industries and businesses, and understanding how they worked. As well as successfully selling quite a few cars to them as well.

Andy: 14:04

Yeah. And were you were you curious about those businesses?

Kevin Brown: 14:08

Yes, I was. I really enjoyed understanding how they worked. It was sort of extra curricular in that respect, in that it wasn't what I was paid to do. But when I was talking to these people, and I said, Well, and what do you do? How do you do it? And they were very generously taught me about how things work and even showed me around. I mean, I've often felt that fantastic factories, steel works and a tank factory, making Challenger tanks, for example. Really interesting stuff. And I think building some relationships that were very

Andy: 14:43

Yeah. That's what I was thinking. If you've got that beneficial in both ways. genuine curiosity, and you're asking people about their business that does help to build those relationships that lead to business success as well

Kevin Brown: 14:57

And it was genuine as well Andy, it wasn't just going through the motions of asking the questions on the tick sheet.

Andy: 15:06

Yeah, you wanted to know, how does this business model work and what you do. And yeah, also a couple of things you mentioned there one, the luck involved. So you went for one job. And whilst you didn't get that it opened the door to another and the fact that your wife was really supportive, and when the first opportunity to move came up, she said, Oh, let's go and give it a go. So what sort of age would you've been at this point?

Kevin Brown: 15:30

I would have been 22 in those days, I was very, very young, relatively speaking.

Andy: 15:35

Yeah. So that's young. You married young then?

Kevin Brown: 15:39

We weren't actually married in those days. Okay. Yeah. But we were living together in a flat in London.

Andy: 15:46

Okay, so 22, quite a young age to be going and visiting companies and asking them, you know, asking them about their business. Really.

Kevin Brown: 15:58

It was, I was, and I didn't understand it at the time. But looking back on it, it was a very brave move. To put me in that position at a time, I was delighted and really enjoyed the work. But looking back on it, I think, would I in that situation, would I be brave enough to employ me. I don't think I would have been.

Andy: 16:22

Yeah, it's interesting because I had another guest Ed Eppley, who was selling radio advertising when he was in similar age. But he was also very genuinely curious in about the businesses that he visited, and was able to build sensible meaningful relationships with proprietors because he clearly was interested and had read around the topic, and, you know, was able to forge those strong relationships. So how long were you doing that for?

Kevin Brown: 16:52

I worked there for something like three years. We were based in Leeds and I bought a house in Leeds, and was looking after Yorkshire. And, yeah, it was a really, really good time, domestically, as well as commercially. It was, I think we were both my wife works with the NHS, and she can move around the country quite easily, which is a great benefit for both of us. It was a great time socially, a great time commercially.

Andy: 17:23

Yeah. And where did you go next? What came after that?

Kevin Brown: 17:27

What come after that was I was encouraged to apply for a job within Austin Rover, looking after car leasing firms in the north of the country. My my boss, a chap called Alan Rushforth, who was a brilliant chap, has done all sorts of great things afterwards, as well. And looking back on it And, I think that's probably the my most pleasurable time I spent a couple years working with him and a chap called John Hannah who looked after the south of the country. And we did a lot of very good things and work bloody hard, but we achieved an awful lot.

Andy: 18:09

And what made him a good boss then

Kevin Brown: 18:13

he, he gave us direction and said, this is what we want to achieve. But sort of let the how we're going to do it down to us, down to myself and John Hannah. And we made a very good team, because John was brilliant at ideas. And I thought I was okay at the planning and strategy and process stuff. So as a team, we worked extremely well, because our, our, our abilities complemented each other, we weren't all the same character, we were very different characters, but we made it you know, add it all together and we did very well.

Andy: 18:54

And Alan Rushforth facilitated that, created that environment where he could

Kevin Brown: 18:59

he did, and he let us get on with it. He was a director, rather than a manager if you see what I mean. He said, This is what you want to achieve. Go away and find a plan to achieve it. And bring bring me back results. And we did and it worked.

Andy: 19:16

Very good. And did you have a plan for how you were going to navigate your career through the business? Or was it more doing a good job that was in front of you and then see

Kevin Brown: 19:27

It was the second. I mean, I really and still don't what happens? have a plan. It was about taking opportunities as they arose. I'm very cynical about people. When when you go to the job interview and they say what do you see yourself doing in five years time? I think it's a farce because no one can tell what the world's gonna be like in five years time and how you fit into it. So I've always thought it's more like a an expedition, rather than a journey. So you go out in the world and you and things happen, and you've got to decide what to do about it as they happen. So you come to a fork in the road, am I going to go this way or that way, rather than I know where I'm going already.

Andy: 20:09

Right? No, that's fair. And so when it came to the end of your time looking after the leasing companies, what was the next move?

Kevin Brown: 20:18

The next move was was more strategic rather than tactical. I was we had a big review and inside the organisation, and they were setting up a new team of people it's interesting. That's the second time they've made a to look after car dealers. And they were called area business managers. But basically, they were taking on a number of functions that individual people used to do. And I put my hat in the ring, to look after these dealers. And I was appointed, which was a bit of a surprise because I'd absolutely no experience of any of the activities that dealers carried out, I was appointed as what we call an area busy managers. So looking after the dealers in East Anglia, in Norfolk, Suffolk, and Essex, which was a fantastic experience, I learned an awful lot. Because I started from ground zero. I mean, I turned up, I thought, I have no idea what to do here. So I was decision, which you consider to be brave and where you found finding out what to do as I got along. And I made some horrendous mistakes earlier on. But I think it was right in the end, it was very brave for the firm to appoint me yourself in an area that you've got, you had the feeling you got no experience for and you're gonna have to work out as you go along. How were you received because you'd still be quite a young man I'm calculating at this point Crumbs, I would have been late 20s I would have thought at this stage.

Andy: 22:01

Yeah. And you're the guy from the factory turning up to meet a business owner or probably more business owners

Kevin Brown: 22:08

Yes and turning up to people who not only were owning the business Andy but had twice at least twice as much experience as me probably three or four times. At this point, I had six or seven years motor industry experience under my belt, a lot of these guys had been doing it since they were little boys because their dad owned the business in the first place.

Andy: 22:30

Yeah. So that must I mean that still happens to younger people now who've got some kind of role representing a business they go out and they have to deal with people who are older and more experienced. It doesn't sound like you had you know you had a lot of humility going into that role. You certainly weren't going in there overconfident because you knew you knew nothing about it. So how did you get on with those people? How did you set about sort of adding value to them or whatever you did?

Kevin Brown: 23:02

Well, it was. In that respect, it was quite interesting. Because I had something like 25 dealers to look after and many of them were very welcoming. And, you know, understood where I was as an individual. And were very helpful, and taught me an awful lot, which helped me with the guys who frankly, weren't so helpful. Yeah, so I know. So a handful of guys, they were really nice fellows, who basically take me under their wing and teach me what I needed to know.

Andy: 23:37

Yeah. And I imagine that comes from the way you approached it. So that went well. Being an area business manager.

Kevin Brown: 23:46

Yeah, it went well, I learned an awful lot. I mean, it didn't do it for a great deal of time, I think I was there for about two and a half years. But it was very interesting. And I really got to understand how car dealers work, which is immense benefit later on in my career. So I'm glad I did it. It was hard work. You were on call 24/7 Basically, I remember getting phone calls that 11 o'clock at night from people saying I've got a problem. How can you help me sort it out? But it was it was enjoyable and very informative.

Andy: 24:24

Right. And were you, you might not know this Kevin, a difficult question to remember back but were you planning on having a career with with Austin Rover was that, did you think

Kevin Brown: 24:36

oh, I at that point, Andy I was. It changed a bit later on. But at that point, I wasn't really planning to do anything else. I thought this is really good fun. I like working here. I like the people, I like the work and and why would I change?

Andy: 24:56

Okay, and what about this idea of moving every two or three years, it seemed was that a did you expect that you would be moving jobs every two or three years?

Kevin Brown: 25:08

That's a good question. I wasn't expecting to. But that's the way it happened. I mean some people, for example, in the in the area manager job, some people were doing that job, there's a lovely chap called Rick Wilson, who was the dealer manager when I was a young fleet sales up in Yorkshire. He'd been in that job for about 15 years. And he was great because he knew everything. He knew all the people. And he did a superb job. And that's what he wanted to do. I knew I had no intention to stay there forever, but I wasn't quite sure what to do next.

Andy: 25:48

Right. So it accommodated different appetites.

Kevin Brown: 25:51

Yes, it did. And I think everybody was conscious there were sort of two, two breeds I suppose, there were the people who wanted to do a good job and there forever. And people who were broaden their experience or doing different things. I remember, can't remember the chap's name I'm afraid to say, but I remember, we had a sort of like a corporate review at one point about what you want to do next. And the guy who was working with said I don't want to do anything next. I'm happy doing this until the day I retire. And I thought, good for you. That's, you know, you know what you're good, you know what you enjoy doing. And it wasn't as if he was doing a bad job, or lacking ambition even. But he was happy doing what he was doing. And he wanted to do it until he retired. So hats off. And in some respects I wish that I was like that as well.

Andy: 26:51

Yeah, I was gonna say, Do you have any is a little bit of you ever think wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, to be happy with what you're doing? Not constantly thinking? What else? What else could I do? So how did it progress through through the business? But what are the highlights?

Kevin Brown: 27:10

The highlights? So I was a bit of luck, I suppose, but I was very successful in my early times at Rover. And I'm not quite sure, you know, I don't want to claim fantastic talent. There again, I don't want to say it was all down to luck either. But we did rather well, and I was enjoying myself. And I was throwing myself into the work. It was just a nice place to be, nice people, nice work, great customers. And it didn't really feel like work. It felt like having a good time. You know?

Andy: 27:49

Very good. Very good. So when I met you, you were in what was then called corporate sales.

Kevin Brown: 27:56

When I met you. I was the Regional Manager for the South East of England, in corporate sales. And we had a recruitment drive. And we took on a handful of very good people, one of whom was you. And one of the things I really enjoyed in that role Andy was bringing on people and seeing them do well.

Andy: 28:22

Yeah. And that showed and this is the reason I said at the beginning of this episode, that is a special one for me is because you were the person who brought me into the automotive industry. So as I said, I didn't work it out right away, even though it should have been obvious to me, but I didn't have the for various reasons was not exactly on top of things going through university and then coming out. So I didn't have the foresight to do the milk round, apply for roles with automotive companies. And I took a different route, but worked it out some years later and, and saw the advert in the Sunday Times for corporate sales managers. And it was you that gave me the chance to come from totally outside of the industry, and gave me my first opportunity which was 25, just over 25 years ago, and I'm very grateful for that. And I'm now I'm hearing how you had opportunities where you thought you weren't really equipped. You were given opportunities, so it's yes, good. So I'm very grateful that you gave me one, thank very much for that.

Kevin Brown: 29:39

You are of course extremely welcome Andy. I do remember it very clearly and at the time of setting down and I'm remembering your first day at work when you turned up and I collected you from the railway station and took you to our car compound to get your company car, which as usual had about two pints of fuel in it and we went down to the petrol station for you to fill up your car and you gtt the petrol pump out and then came over to me and says Does it take unleaded? And I thought blimey, I knew we had some product knowledge to impart

Andy: 30:25

Yeah, I remember that.

Kevin Brown: 30:27

But we you know in those days, and I still believe it today fundamentally is recruit on attributes and abilities, you know, just sort of knowledge, you can teach people knowledge, as long as they're, they're bright. You can teach them teach them knowledge, but don't close your eyes to people who have done a job in the past. And I had this issue some time later. This was another recruitment round later on, where we employed a recruitment agency to sift through the various people. And they gave us a load of people who were motor industry salespeople, and a lot of them looked on paper I thought no, no, no, no, they're not right. And we I remember going up to Leeds where this firm was, and going through literally hundreds of applications. And finding people who were really good who had nothing to do with the motor industry. I remember one guy who was selling burglar alarms, for example. But we looked for the talents and the abilities you know. And in terms of the industry, if you're good enough and bright enough and got the right sort of empathy with customers, then it doesn't really matter where you're coming from.

Andy: 31:50

Yeah, no I think it's obviously served me well, that attitude that you had and that approach. And we had a lot of fun in the southern region. I enjoyed working with you, for you very much. Great team, I learned an awful lot. I made some other mistakes that were on a par with, does it take unleaded but survived. And, as you say, picked up some knowledge along the way. You then left us. I remember what it was when when we were in that team that you decided to leave the group didn't you. So what happened there? How did that happen, what was your thinking?

Kevin Brown: 32:30

What happened there? this is a very hard one very hard one I, I was approached by two people, one one was a former employee of Rover. And one was an employee of KPMG, who was on the same MBA course that I was on. And said we're looking for people who have got management consulting capability and lots of motor industry expertise. And would you like to join us? Come have a chat. So I did. And at the time, Andy, if you remember, and this is perhaps a little bit awkward, but at the time, we were owned by BMW, and every time a senior job came up, it was a non Rover person who got the job. It was either a BMW person or an outsider. And so I was looking at my career path and thinking, well, there isn't one because every time a senior job comes up, it's a non motor person who gets the job. And so given the opportunity to join KPMG, blue chip, professional services firm at a very senior level, didn't take much thinking about to be honest. I was really sorry to leave. And I had a fantastic time working for Rover and looking back on things, it was probably the happiest working time I had.

Andy: 34:01

And how did you find that the transition into professional services?

Kevin Brown: 34:05

A bit difficult. I mean, it's a lot more formal. But it's you're sort of removed from the constraints of, of corporate orthodoxy. So that you know, you really know you, not only can you but you're encouraged to challenge the status quo. Whereas at Rover sometimes you say well can we do this way? Well, no, we can't because this is how it always happens.

Andy: 34:36

You touched on the fact that you were doing an MBA and that one of these contacts was a colleague from your MBA course which I think you did at Warwick didn't you?

Kevin Brown: 34:46

Warwick. Yes.

Andy: 34:47

So the lazy student decides to go and do an MBA. What was the thinking behind that?

Kevin Brown: 34:56

The thinking behind that was that I was quite interested in it. And it sort of, I'll tell you what it really was Andy, was that I did a Business Studies degree at Manchester. And it was all very theoretical because I was 18 years old. And I had no experience of industry. And in fact, when I took my MBA, it started to make sense. And a lot of it the same ground, actually, the same people, the same theories, the same analysis. But this time, it made sense, because I'd had 15 years worth of industry experience under my belt. And it actually made sense. And it really helped me sort things out. But to answer your question sorry, the reason I did it was so I could get myself up to speed again, understand what the current thinking was.

Andy: 35:56

Okay. Very interesting. How long did you spend at KPMG?

Kevin Brown: 36:02

I was there for four years, doing various things, working on various projects, almost always in automotive, although not exclusively, doing some quite interesting stuff.

Andy: 36:13

What sort of things can you talk about from from that period?

Kevin Brown: 36:17

Well, I mean, I really can't name names. But for example, we were engaged to do a survey around a big public organisation that was about to be privatised, and I was asked to look after the vehicle side of things, and they were basically trying to protect themselves against former activities and in future regulation. So getting their benchmarks sorted out, which was quite interesting. Best one, I think, was trying to help people out. So I did an awful lot of fleet recruitment activity.

Andy: 36:54

So leveraging the experience really from your career to date, plus the theoretical side, from the MBA, and bringing it all together in a consulting role.

Kevin Brown: 37:08

Yeah, I mean what I call proper consulting, which was helping people who need a one off job done, rather than delegating what they should be doing themselves to an outside body, which is an awful lot of consulting work, doing a one off job for a one off problem

Andy: 37:26

right. It's quite a difference, I imagine from working, say, with a, let's say, got your 25 dealers, and you're, you're seeing them regularly, same set of customers for quite a while, versus the more transient project based roles if I've got the right perception.

Kevin Brown: 37:46

I think you've got that right. It was a shame because the problem was you do a job, and you walk away, and you don't really see the result. So that was, you know, that was one of the things I didn't particularly like about it, because you, you haven't got an ongoing involvement in it. But it was cracking work. And you do understand some things about businesses that you wouldn't have understood because they're sort of normally sort of hidden away, because they're not things that people want you to see. But when they've got problems, you can get really involved in it, and understand more about the fundamentals of how the business works.

Andy: 38:26

So that will play also to that natural curiosity you had about how businesses work that you had from an early age. But you didn't stay doing that, Kevin. So what happened? What was the transition after that?

Kevin Brown: 38:42

What happened was quite funny actually. I had a phone call one day from a chap who was a headhunter. And he said, I've got a great opportunity for you. Do you want to come speak to me about it? So as you do, I said, Yes, I would say I popped in and saw this guy one morning, and within about five minutes it became clear. They made a big mistake.

Andy: 39:10

How do you mean?

Kevin Brown: 39:11

Well, he thought he thought I was an expert in Actuarial Science. And they had a job at Zurich Insurance that he was trying to find a candidate for and I thought. Yeah, right. So yes, so it was to say as I say, he made it very clear very quickly that he was talking to the wrong Kevin Brown

Andy: 39:41

and that's not what whilst you have had roles where you thought I don't know much about this, that's not one where you

Kevin Brown: 39:49

I really don't think I could bluff my way could through there. But when when found out by lunchtime. But anyway, about three months later, I got a phone call from the same guy. And he said this time, I've got a job for you. And it turned out to be a job at the RAC, the Head of Strategy for the RAC. And it was, it was a very interesting thing. And looking back to my recruitment at KPMG, I always saw it as a stepping stone. It was a fantastic place to work, but not one that I was going to work for forever. And it taught me an awful lot. And I'm very pleased to have worked there. But the time came to be moving away. And this was a great opportunity.

Andy: 40:42

Right. So what attracted you to the RAC?

Kevin Brown: 40:45

Well, RSC had just been bought by the Lex Service Group. And I had lots of dealings with Lex, both in terms of dealers and leasing. And I had a lot of time for them, I thought they're really well run organisation. And what they were seeking to do was turn the RAC from a very paternalistic organisation into more commercial one. And I thought, well, yes, you know, I'd like to be part of that, because I really respected what Lex were all about. So that's what really attracted me. And of course, it turned out rather well.

Andy: 41:28

Right. So it was a transformation that was exciting, but also that what you knew about the organisation that had acquired the RAC was appealing to go and work for them.

Kevin Brown: 41:38

Yeah. And I knew Lex very well, from my leasing and dealer management days and they're a fantastic organisation. And I thought, yeah, they're going to make differences. And I can be a part of that.

Andy: 41:52

And what did it involve? What were you having to do then in that role? And how did it play out,

Kevin Brown: 41:57

It was about straightening out corporate relationships into a more well frankly, profitable situation. RAC was a great organisation. It was owned by the the Gentleman's Club in Pall Mall. And basically, as long as they gave some money to the membership club end of each year, everything was fine. And they were so customer focused, you wouldn't believe it. I mean, it has the most incredible customer satisfaction, but so when I joined, and I was looking at their customer satisfaction scores, they're getting 99 point something percent satisfaction. And I was used to seeing 60% as a car manufacturer. And I thought What on earth are these guys doing? And the answer was, they love their customers to death was the most amazing customer service, but at the expense of financial sensibility. So for example, if a patrol's driving along and saw someone broken down at the side of the road, they'd stop and help them, they wouldn't say are you an RAC member? No. Well that's a shame. For 60 quid you can join and I'll fix your car. No, they didn't, they just fixed the car and drove away again. Brilliant customer service. Lousy commercial sense.

Andy: 43:33

Right? Yeah. Okay, so we're not gonna be rushing off copying that model just yet.

Kevin Brown: 43:40

But the most amazing customer focus, and one of the things that RAC did which I think is brilliant, the personal bonus that people had was based not on their productivity or efficiency or so forth, but on their personal customer satisfaction scores. So every breakdown that rings in the RAC, you know, which call handler took the call, and which patrol sorted the problem out, and when the customers are surveyed, it's your personal CSI score that drives your personal bonus, right? Nothing, nothing to do with your average handle time or your jobs per day. It's about how you look after customers.

Andy: 44:27

So very outcome based then, how happy was the customer, how satisfied was the customer?

Kevin Brown: 44:32

And I remember speaking to our chief exec guy called Andy Harrison, very interesting chap. And I remember him saying that and this is a mantra that I think is that was amazing, is he said, Happy staff make happy customers, and happy customers make happy shareholders. So look after your customers, look after your staff, and everything sort of falls into line afterwards.

Andy: 45:01

Yeah. And putting the staff first happy staff make happy customers. And that was being lived out. So did you manage to drive the drive the 99% down Kevin that was more commercial?

Kevin Brown: 45:17

I'm glad to say when I finished it was 43%.

Andy: 45:27

Joking aside, you would have had to sacrifice some of that, presumably, I might be getting ahead of myself. But to achieve the commercial commerciality you wanted,

Kevin Brown: 45:38

I think you can do this, do the activity, more effectively, doesn't necessarily have to affect the customers.

Andy: 45:47

How do you do that? How did you manage that?

Kevin Brown: 45:50

Well, you do it by streamlining the back office functions so that you understand what needs to be done more quickly. For example, you have in this particular instance, rather than having all the kit you need on every single van, you have all the kit in several vans, so that when a customer needs some help, you can send the van has got the right kit on it to the customer. Rather than having everyone driving round with the right stuff on it, which means you can therefore save money on buying equipment, but on deployment with various people.

Andy: 46:26

Right, so you make your efficiencies in areas that don't affect the customer experience.

Kevin Brown: 46:32

Yes, the customer experience is absolutely valid. And in business like that, and I understand also the the AA are the same, it's all about looking after the customer. And nothing else really matters. As long as the customer's happy, then you've got a good business model.

Andy: 46:49

Yeah. Okay. So that was a good time. It was a successful time and an interesting one and able to use your strategic thinking, your theoretical ideas, but really in a genuine commercial environment. And how long did you stay there? Kevin, and what was next?

Kevin Brown: 47:06

Oh, crumbs? I wasn't there an awful long time about, again, about three years. But what was next was MG Rover.

Andy: 47:16

How did that come about then?

Kevin Brown: 47:18

Well, I was having conversations with people, a chap called Paul Stroud in in Maidstone, but they were looking to put together a management team post buy-out from a Chinese company, which unfortunately didn't come to fruition. I joined when the heads of agreement had been made, but they didn't come to fruition, but it was fantastic time. I had six months working of very good times. And we did an awful lot of good work and hit our targets and did very well. And then a month of everything going wrong like a balloon with all the air fizzing out of it.

Andy: 48:09

I seem to remember you telling me an interesting story about your time, with SAIC and some situation with some desks.

Kevin Brown: 48:20

So when I was at MG Rover, I was asked whether I could donate some of our hot desks to the Chinese chaps who were looking after the due diligence for SAIC and I said yeah fine because they were being used by our sales guys on an ad hoc basis. So I said yes you can you can use our hot desks, not a problem. So next day I came into work and the hot desks were gone. They'd taken them away to another part of the building. I turned up and they're all furious with me. What the hell did you say to them?

Andy: 49:34

Good. I'm glad you shared that one. Right. And so this was BMW had sold Rover,

Kevin Brown: 49:45

BMW sold Rover. And Rover was working itself through basically trying to find a business partner to give it the the economies of scale it needed to be one wireball as a manufacturing firm. And after a number of dalliances with various Korean and Chinese firms entered an agreement in principle with the Shanghai Automotive company, and it didn't pan out.

Andy: 50:18

But it took a few months to find that out by which time you were already there.

Kevin Brown: 50:22

Well, once heads of agreement had been signed, I mean, I was having conversations along the way, when negotiations were happening. I joined once heads of agreement had been signed. And then they didn't get followed though, which is a shame.

Andy: 50:40

So do you find yourself then all of a sudden without a job?

Kevin Brown: 50:45

Yes, I did. I mean, in fact, I did find myself without a job. But about two days later, my old boss at the RAC rang me up and said, understand you might be at a bit of a loose end at the moment. Do you want to come and do some work for us?

Andy: 51:04

How marvellous

Kevin Brown: 51:06

so, so I went back to the RAC and carried on where I left off?

Andy: 51:11

That's decent, well it shows are also you were well appreciated for what you did there that they had you back. And how long was your second stint at the RAC?

Kevin Brown: 51:22

Oh, a year and a half, two years, I can't remember now, it was quite a nice stint and I really enjoyed it. At the time, though, RAC was taken over by Aviva, the Norwich Union firm and it really changed quite dramatically in terms of its customer focus. I was invited to join Leyland DAF Vans, looking after the fleet being the Fleet Sales Director, basically the same job I had at Rover. So again, looking at career trajectory, I thought that was a smart move to make.

Andy: 51:58

Right. So a big, big cultural change at the RAC once they became owned by Aviva. And an opportunity for you to go to Leyland DAF Vans, Fleet Director looked like a good move as far as your career was concerned. And how did that pan out?

Kevin Brown: 52:18

Not particularly well. It was a interesting time, a business that had a very discreet market segment that was under pressure, which is the distribution sector. No thought about things like style, or prestige or soforth. So it's not like selling cars, when you sell a van, it's a van. And it just takes stuff from one place to another. So there really isn't any prestige involved unless you're driving a Mercedes. So it was really quite hard work. And what became very clear later on was that LDV simply didn't have the economies of scale to be competitive against the likes of Ford Transit and Mercedes Sprinter and soforth. And what happened at the LDV was that and this happened before I joined because before I joined LDV had been taken over by a firm called Gaz, which was a Russian vehicle manufacturing firm, and installed a couple of very senior chaps. So Martin Leach, who was ex Ford of Europe was chairman of Gaz Group and then LDV. And I thought, well, this will put money into the business. Unfortunately, something like six months into my my time there, the Russians ran away a bit like the Chinese ran away with MG Rover, I thought this is looking like review situation. So can you imagine you're the captain of Titanic Mark two, there's a big iceberg up there.

Andy: 54:16

Again.

Kevin Brown: 54:22

Sorry to say I jumped ship. And it turns out that that was the right thing to do. So yeah, that's how I joined and left LDV

Andy: 54:33

what I just want to jump in there. Think about the environmental, these sort of external, external factors that influence whether a job's a good move or not or whether it was so you can have a job that's good and then ownership changes, the culture changes or you can go into a situation which looks promising, but then it doesn't actually follow through. It's these different external factors that we need to take into account, although you can't always take them into account can you, sometimes they happen. You go for all the right reasons like this business appears to be being invested in by the Russians. But then after you've made your move, they decide to change their mind and do something else. And you'll find yourself in a situation, which isn't what you expected it to be and have to rethink and move again. So what did you What steps did you take then?

Kevin Brown: 55:24

Well, I, it's an interesting situation Andy in that yes, that does happen, you get into a situation where you're not quite sure what the future holds. And when it changes, you're listening for what happens next. So what happened next for me was having lots of chats with people about the situation and what happens next. And I was very pleased to say that my former KPMG boss asked me to join him. Right. So I went to join James Roger, fantastic fellow who worked at KPMG and went to work for Bearing Point, which I enjoyed. Well actually Bearing Point, funnily enough, was the American spinoff of KPMG consulting, so it's sort of like I'm at the same firm again. So that's, that's what I did. I just put my feelers out and found someone who said that they'd be okay.

Andy: 56:20

Yeah, that's a really good I think it's a really good point, Kevin, that just having lots of conversations, and presumably not knowing which of those conversations might result in something. But just knowing that the practice is to go out and talk to as many people as you can.

Kevin Brown: 56:37

And you know, and not about begging for a job, but just saying you saw what's going on? What do you think? And hopefully there's some sort of map somewhere. Again, we talked about luck earlier on. Luckily, I had a conversation with James Roderick at that same time, they were looking to recruit somebody.

Andy: 56:57

Yeah. And so Bearing Point was the American was it owned by KPMG. Or was it

Kevin Brown: 57:04

Bearing Point was the spinoff of KPMG consulting in America. Okay. And the European practices sort of span out from that. So they, they became what was KPMG consulting. So that was yes, that was basically the European KPMG consulting practice. It's all very confusing. I know.

Andy: 57:29

So it was going back to a similar role was it? Same sort of work that you've done before?.

Kevin Brown: 57:32

Yes. Same sort of work. same sorts of people. Yeah. And, and good fun as well. Very interesting. Lots of different customers. This time, I worked all over the place, before I was very much UK based. But this was a European job. So I did quite a lot of work in Holland, in Norway and in Sweden, was really quite nice.

Andy: 57:56

Yeah. And I remember you being particularly engaged, and you said, in the Rover, you know, the early times at Rover was really didn't feel like work. It was just fun doing, doing what you were doing. Was that similar? Were you getting were similarly engaged in these projects,

Kevin Brown: 58:15

not really, to be honest, it was very much work. And you had a you know, very clear that you had the clients that you needed to satisfy, and deliverables that, work you deliver that was very tangible, and measurable, often in quite tight timescales. So it wasn't really the same sort of atmosphere that we had at Rover. It was very much focused on delivery, rather than looking after customers, and making sure things are smoothly over and getting deals done. But with people that you have very pleasant relationships with. In the corporate services world, it was much more do eat dog, and not the sort of place I felt terribly comfortable with. Apart from working with people there, it's collegiate. And we're all in it together, we all got a common objective. And we help each other out.

Andy: 59:18

You only find this out I think by doing it. You only find this out by trying different things. And so were you learning this about yourself as you went? Or was it you know, did you have that luxury to be thinking I'm gonna refine, you know, what I want to do based on my experiences or too idealistic?

Kevin Brown: 59:42

very difficult question to answer that Andy. Certainly made me realise what I liked and what I didn't like. And what I didn't like was the intra organisational competitiveness and interpersonal competitiveness. So you really were up against not only yourself, but the other departments and so forth. Whereas when I was working with companies like the RAC, and Rover, where it was very much about a team efforts, it was much more personally satisfying. Yeah. You hadn't got to justify yourself individually, every day, you've just got to contribute towards a group success and you will successfully achieve. And sort of looking back on it Andy, a bit like Rover and I don't know what your thoughts are, but there wasn't any individual pressure, in my view, in Rover, it was all about the collective effort trying to achieve the collective goal.

Andy: 1:00:42

Yeah, and I just think it's really useful. Thank you for sharing that. Because if you're outside, you know, fairly early on in your career, and you're looking at different opportunities, there are lots of aspects that you need to try and take into account and some of which you can't actually, you need to know stuff about yourself about what your preferences are. And you need to, if you can try and find out what what's the environment, like? What is that job, what's it going to feel like for me doing that job. And some people love that environment, I'm sure they prefer that environment to the more collegiate one. That's great if you're one of those people. So when you were doing that, did you at some point think hang on, this isn't what I want to be doing really?

Kevin Brown: 1:01:26

No, not really, to be honest Andy, there wasn't a great flash of light and realisation, it was just about luck, and so forth, just the way things panned out.

Andy: 1:01:39

So you just carry on doing it until something interesting, or some external factor

Kevin Brown: 1:01:45

What happened to me was that the 2008 crisis hit, everything fell off a cliff from a commercial point of view. So sadly, I was made redundant from from Bearing Point. And this sought to seek myself out. And what happened was, I got a few phone calls from people saying, can you come and help us? So I did. And by accident, I got into being a self employed consultant, which wasn't my plan at all, it just sort of happened. Like most things in my life seem to

Andy: 1:02:21

yeah, there's a, there's a recurring theme, though, of when you're available there are people from your past, or from your present, who are kind of grateful and want to take advantage of your services, they want to they want to work with you. So do you think that, it just sounds to me, like if you go through life, doing good work and building strong relationships, then that paid, as you clearly had, that paid off in the times when you found yourself available?

Kevin Brown: 1:02:54

I really do believe you make your own luck and I have been lucky. But also, I think, if you work hard, do good stuff. People will notice you but it's all rather a fragile philosophy. If they don't notice you, you don't do the stuff.

Andy: 1:03:14

Do we need to do a disclaimer here? Don't come running to us. Right, so you found yourself an accidental consultant or an accidental,

Kevin Brown: 1:03:35

accidental? Yeah, it was and, you know, for many years, it worked very well, indeed, from repeat business and so forth. So that was great.

Andy: 1:03:47

Yeah. And I guess you didn't have the internal competitiveness in the organisation once it was your own, your own outfit.

Kevin Brown: 1:03:55

Well I wouldn't name it an outfit as such Andy, it was just me doing stuff for people. I didn't see myself as being a corporate entity. It was just people that I knew when they want this stuff done. And I did it for them. And they paid me reasonably well for it. So it's a very strange distinction.

Andy: 1:04:16

Yeah. But people you like working with I'm guessing?

Kevin Brown: 1:04:23

Well, it makes for goodness sake Andy, that makes a huge difference. People like working with is much better than status or even income. Just having in having a working environment that you like, is fantastic. And it's I think is worth money. If someone said to me, we'll give you a job that pays 30 grand more, but it'd be completely awful. I'll probably say no,

Andy: 1:04:51

no. Yeah. So that helped you out of the financial crisis, then accidentally became a consultant did it for many years, worked with people you liked, served you well, does that bring as close to present day?

Kevin Brown: 1:05:07

close to present. I mean, what happened most recently Andy was, obviously the global crisis. So, Brexit in particular, and COVID, also has basically dried up my work. So I was thinking what to do next. And as it happens, I found myself a lovely job, which I really enjoy and suits my lifestyle perfectly, which is to be the assistant clerk to Wellesbourne parish council. I mean, it's just a lovely, I can walk to work. It's very interesting work, but not terribly stressful. And the pension is good. So I think to myself, this is what I'll do until I retire. It's much better than it's much better than driving up and down the motorway for 170 miles an hour. All the time. When I was at RAC, they said to me, how many miles a year you think you're doing in your company car, and I said I have no idea. Probably about 20,000 which was my usual with KPMG. When I handed in my car back, it had 180,000 miles on the clock, they went absolutely berserk.

Andy: 1:06:32

Was that a three year? three year deal? Yeah. My goodness. Yeah. So this is down the road,

Kevin Brown: 1:06:40

I can literally walk to work. When I was living in Warwick, one of my son's teachers lived opposite us. And I saw him walk into work with his satchel and the rest of it. And I thought, Oh, what a fantastic thing, fancy being able to walk to work, and now I can

Andy: 1:06:59

very good and I think you have quite a strong sense of social responsibility Kevin, are you able to exercise that in this role?

Kevin Brown: 1:07:09

I'm not quite sure what you mean Andy to be honest.

Andy: 1:07:11

You're a good person, who cares about other people cares I mean, about the environment that you live in. And I'm just think I'm imagining that this is an opportunity, give back to Wellesbourne and you know, contribute?

Kevin Brown: 1:07:25

Yeah, it is. And it's nicely part of the delivery mechanism that looks after people. You're right. I do feel very strongly about being the social societies you look after its people in particular, its weakest people. I'm afraid to say that's not something that's coming from the very top at the moment.

Andy: 1:07:46

That's the sense of the person that I have of you. And also, yeah, obviously lots of ability and experience you bring to that role. So they're very lucky to have have you doing that. And it's a win win with you enjoying it

Kevin Brown: 1:08:03

would you please, please, Andy, will you write that down and send it to them?

Andy: 1:08:10

It's recorded, Kevin, there's no need. You can you send them this episode. Although I Okay, so now you've made me wonder, Are you are you incredibly difficult? Are you being very challenging in the role? Are you being disruptive? Are you trying to change things?

Kevin Brown: 1:08:28

That's a very interesting one Andy. I've tried to be, but I've been rejected at every course. The difference between the public sector and the private sector is immense. In the in the private sector, you can say, Hey, boss, I'm not quite sure that's right idea. How about this instead? And they'll listen. In the public sector. Hey, boss, this is what I did. How about this instead? No, that's how we do it. Okay, so you need another 50 or 60 years in this role perhaps before you can start making suggestions Yeah, so when I'm 186, I might have cracked it

Andy: 1:09:14

Well, I wish you all the best I can imagine you won't give up. I can't imagine you sitting too quietly and letting it wash over. But I wish you all the best in that. Kevin, is there anything I haven't asked you. That means that might have missed a good story or a nugget?

Kevin Brown: 1:09:31

There are a few things that I thought were worthwhile. I mean, one was, do you remember when we were at Rover and we were struggling to hit our targets? And Jeff Edgar had an idea to put together the whole training programme for our dealers and get the best dealers and basically turn them into mini CSMs. And it worked a treat. It really did. We got people up to Studley and put them through were you there Andy?.

Andy: 1:10:05

Yeah, yeah, I was there, Corporate sales master class.

Kevin Brown: 1:10:11

And it was it worked a treat. And we got plenty of business out of it.

Andy: 1:10:15

So that idea of extending you're trying to extend your team really by spreading the skills that your team has to your partners, your retailers

Kevin Brown: 1:10:27

And it, and it worked fantastically. And so hats off to Jeff Edgar, because that was one of the best things that ever happened. And I thought it was you know, it was well, wasn't incredible, wasn't as good as that, it was very good indeed. But yeah, although I got an Almighty telling off because we did it under the radar, if you remember. And some of the daelers who weren't invited complained and I was summoned to our MD Peter Jones, to explain what's going on. We had this and I say, Well, what are you doing? Because we want to sell more cars. And that's the way to do it. And it's a cracking idea. And he said, Why didn't you tell me? I said, Well, we did it under the radar. We had this big conversation. He called me a maverick. I said it's not being a maverick, it's being an entrepreneur. This long conversation. And in the end, we agreed that a Maverick is an unsuccessful Entrepreneur. Entrepreneur, he's an unsuccesful maverick, but it was you know, it was crumbs's that was among the best things. And I'm asked what my great priorities are, like you know what your chiefland says one of them. It was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And it came down to Jeff Edgar, who's a fantastic chap who also the other the other Jeff Edgar thing, do you remember that we usually try to hold our regional meetings at customers places rather than drag everyone else up to the Midlands. Yes, yeah. Well, Jeff, one of Jeff's customers was Harvey's of Lewis the brewers. And they had offered us the use of their boardroom for a regional meeting. But we never ever got to the situation where their freedom and our dates matched up. So Jeff, Edgar is literally the only person I've ever known, who can't organise a piss up in a brewery.

Andy: 1:12:52

Wonderful. Fantastic. Thanks for sharing those gems. And thank you for the whole story. Kevin, as I kept jumping in and picking out things that I think, you know, super interesting and relevant for for people. You mentioned luck a lot. But it's the you also say that you make your own luck. And it seemed there was a extraordinary number of people ready to give you a job whenever you needed one whenever you found yourself in that situation. So that's testament to the work that you've done and the person you are. And yeah, thank you again for giving getting me into the industry. I've never, never regretted it.

Kevin Brown: 1:13:38

Actually, Andy I never had either, it was one of the decisions I ever made. I'm not trying to stroke you but that that was one of the best decisions I ever made

Andy: 1:13:48

Well, thank you very much. So I'm glad we're still in touch all these years later, and thanks for joining me to create this episode. And let's keep talking

Kevin Brown: 1:13:57

Marvellous Andy, lovely to speak to you again, Bye

Andy: 1:14:05

you've been listening to Career-view Mirror with me, Andy follows I hope you found some helpful points to reflect on in Kevin's story that can help you with your own career journey or that of those you lead parent or mentor. You are unique. And during my conversation with Kevin, you'll have picked up on topics that resonate with you a few things that stood out for me, were his knowing from an early age the industry that he wanted to go into having some good luck and bad luck along the way. There seeming to always be someone ready to ask Kevin back to work with them again, the importance he placed on the people that he was working with, and that influenced his very first decision to join Austin Rover. How important it is to be genuinely curious about our customers, especially if we hope to gain credibility at a young age. The RACs focus on customer Service and the idea of making efficiencies in areas that don't affect the customer experience. Alan Rushforth, whose leadership style was to give clear direction and allow people the space to work out themselves how they would achieve that goal. The difference between working as a team or in an organisation where there's a strong internal competition and rivalry, and how people are suited to different environments and ways of working. You can contact Kevin via LinkedIn, and we'll put a link in the show notes to this episode. We publish these episodes to celebrate my guests careers, listen to their stories, and learn from their experiences. And I'm genuinely interested in what resonated with you. Thank you to all of you for sharing your feedback. Thanks also to Hannah and Julia, who as part of the Career-view Mirror team here at Aquilae work so hard to deliver these episodes to you. This episode of Career-view Mirror is brought to you by Aquilae. Aquilae's mission is to enable Fulfilling Performance in the mobility industry. We use our very own Fulfilling Performance paradigm to identify what steps you need to take to enable Fulfilling Performance in your business. We leverage our Aquilae Consulting arm for business topics and the Aquilae Academy for people topics. And once we're agreed on the way forward, we work alongside you and your teams to enable Fulfilling Performance and achieve your goals. I explain Fulfilling Performance in more detail in Episode 60 of Career-view Mirror which is a short side mirror episode. If you enjoy Career-view Mirror, please follow us in your podcast app. Thanks for listening