Clive Prevost: The Chartered Accountant with a passion for sales and marketing who’s now helping OEMs transition to a direct sales or “agency” model.

Clive is the owner of Torq Consulting Services.   

As many traditional automotive OEMs transition to becoming completely digitalised and selling directly to the customer, TORQ Consulting Services was established to provide input to OEMs and financial services entities converting to that "agency" model as it's often called. 

Prior to establishing Torq, Clive had a successful international career in automotive financial services including roles as CEO of BMW Financial Services in South Africa, Australia and Japan. 

In our conversation we discuss how Clive was inspired by entrepreneurs and noticed at an early age the impact that Chartered Accountants can have in a business.  

Having qualified as a CA, he wanted to test his ability in Sales and Marketing and he shares how he got himself into a position to do just that.  

We also talk about: 

• how he experienced diversity in different markets,  
• the point when he realised he really couldn't do everything himself and  
• an interesting conversation he had with a former employee he'd had to let go 

Clive is a highly experienced professional in our industry whom I've had the pleasure to work and socialise with in different countries since 2006. I'm pleased to be able to introduce him to you in this episode and look forward to hearing what resonates with you. 

You can contact Clive via: 

email: cp@torq.co.za 

website: www.torq.co.za 

If you enjoy listening to my guests career stories, please follow CAREER-VIEW MIRROR in your podcast app.  

Instagram @careerviewmirror  

Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk 

Episode recorded on  19 December, 2022 

Transcript

Clive Prevost: 0:00

He said to me, if I had asked you to go to Japan as an expat and go and live there for 3, 4, 5 years, you would never have gone. This is my way of getting you here. So, live with it or leave.

Aquilae: 0:13

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host, Andy Follows.

Andy: 0:45

Hello, listeners, Andy here thank you for tuning in. In this episode, we're celebrating the career to date of Clive Prevost. Clive is the owner of Torq Consulting Services. As many traditional automotive OEMs transition to becoming completely digitalized and selling directly to the customer, Torq Consulting Services was established to provide input to OEMs and financial services entities converting to that agency model as it's often called. Prior to establishing Torq, Clive had a successful international career in automotive financial services, including roles as CEO of BMW Financial Services in South Africa, Australia, and Japan. In our conversation, we discuss how Clive was inspired by entrepreneurs and notic ed at an early age the impact that chartered accountants can have in a business. Having qualified as a CA, he wanted to test his ability in sales and marketing. And he shares how he got himself into a position to do just that. He experienced success in that environment and even as a CEO, he enjoyed getting involved in the sales and marketing topics. We also talk about how he experienced diversity in different markets. The point when he realised he really couldn't do everything himself, and an interesting conversation he had with a former employee, who was ultimately grateful for his decision to let her go. Clive is a highly experienced professional in our industry, whom I've had the pleasure to work and socialise with in different countries since 2006. I'm pleased to be able to introduce him to you in this episode, and I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. Hello, Clive and welcome. And where are you coming to us from today?

Clive Prevost: 2:24

Andy, today we are in Johannesburg, South Africa.

Andy: 2:28

And that's home for you now,

Unknown: 2:29

it certainly is in amongst the gangsters and whatever else goes on here. But it's certainly home to me. Yes.

Andy: 2:34

Yeah it'll be interesting to hear a little bit more about life there and how that is. Let's start with where you started where your journey started, though. Where was that?

Unknown: 2:46

Pretty much brought up in Cape Town.

Andy: 2:48

So were you born in Cape Town?

Clive Prevost: 2:50

No actually in Johannesburg. But it was only a couple of months after being born that my parents decided to go down to Cape Town and was brought up in Cape Town went to the University of Cape Town, and so on and so forth, did my articles in Cape Town. And it was only after that, that I was conscripted into the army, believe it or not.

Andy: 3:15

Okay, well, we'll come, we'll come to that. So a large part of your growing up happened in Cape Town. Your parents moved from Johannesburg to Cape Town, I always like to find out what jobs my guests had visibility of when they were growing up. So tell us a little about mum and dad and what they were doing that what you saw.

Unknown: 3:32

So dad was an accountant and worked mainly for oil companies of some other description, Shell, BP, there was a local company called Trek and at some point was working for all three all at the same time. And then my mom was a secretary to Junior School for many, many years. And with both parents, they pretty much had the Anglo Saxon way of working until they died. So my mum was actually asked to leave at age 74. So that's a bit of background about the parents. And if it makes you smile, mom's ashes are actually cast outside of a window in this junior school because that's exactly where she wanted to be.

Andy: 4:22

Wow, that is the epitome of loving your job. I wonder who else has had their ashes scattered at their place of work? That is got to be a small small list of thing. So you saw her certainly you you saw somebody who loved their job. Yeah.

Clive Prevost: 4:45

Absolutely. Completely involved in the school and the various committees through my brother and I having attended the schools so yeah, but at the end of the day, she was as much as the secretary, but she was also involved in accounting. She had her own little business running on the side doing accounting for another small business. So yeah, I suppose you could say both parents are accounting backgrounds, and that's probably where I got my interest.

Andy: 5:18

Okay, so mom was also an accountant. How about Dad did he enjoys his work? I'm not expecting him to have enjoyed it to the extent that your mom clearly did, which is legendary. But did he like what he did?

Clive Prevost: 5:29

Yeah, very much. So he retired at a point, pretty much like myself, rest of the family, we need to keep busy. And he was asked to go back and sort out a mess that developed since he left. So yeah, he enjoyed that. But he was also a sporting guy, and enjoyed his golf.

Andy: 5:53

So you saw that going on as well. And what about brothers and sisters?

Clive Prevost: 5:56

Just one. As you know, I'm fairly tall. 186cm, or 6'2", more or less. I have a taller brother with proverbial blond hair and blue eyes. So very different to me.

Andy: 6:11

Okay, and he's old. Is he older than you?

Clive Prevost: 6:13

He's younger. He's a teacher, you sort of got that through my mom's side. Because pretty much all of my cousins are teachers of some other description, junior school, high school, university, wherever, whatever.

Andy: 6:30

Okay, so there might have been some kind of gravitational pull for you towards that which you didn't take. But we'll talk about how you did come to do what you did?

Clive Prevost: 6:38

No Andy never. Never ever.

Andy: 6:45

All right, forgive me for making that mistake. A little bit about school, then. How were you as a student? What would you, how would your teachers have described your approach to the academic life?

Clive Prevost: 6:57

Consistent? I guess, yes, I managed to be at the upper end of achievement. But it wasn't my be all and end all to be honest. And some teachers were inspirations, by the way, I can still remember some of those teachers today, and others were absolutely awful. And the ones who were awful who went on to being headmaster's and principals in other schools.

Andy: 7:22

Okay. What did the ones who were inspirational do? Is there something that stands out in terms of their behaviour?

Clive Prevost: 7:30

Yeah, pretty much taking an interest in every pupil or student in the class. And then arranging the school day, according to those students in the class and one person comes to mind, it was a maths teacher, I thought I was useless at maths until this particular teacher gave me guidance. And maths soon became my favourite topic and favourite subject that just shows you what teachers can do.

Andy: 8:01

Yeah, that's wonderful. And let's be grateful for those individuals who do that and, you know, make a difference to you, which would then be significant in the direction you took and your career. When you were coming towards the end of your school days, then did you know what you wanted to do?

Clive Prevost: 8:20

Within reason, we had career guidance or counselling, if you wish, over a couple of years. And what the school did was arranged people to come in from various professions to give a talk about this career, their career and so on. And two of the people who came in one was a used car salesman, and the other one was a person who sold insurance and I said right there, and then I never want to do either of those things. So initially, it was a case of where to from here is, is accounting going to be repeated in the family or something else, and I seriously considered doing dentistry.

Andy: 9:12

Okay, so I had a guest recently, Steve Underwood, who's head of financial services for Aston Martin. He also considered dentistry so I'm not sure if there must be something about dentistry and automotive finance that they're almost interchangeable. I don't know.

Clive Prevost: 9:30

For me it was really being your own boss and being a bit of an entrepreneur and being able to manage your own business more so than digging around in people's mouths to be honest.

Andy: 9:43

Yeah, there is that side of it. I just realised you you made a comment which I just want to go back to you said you got good results at school or you are in sort of in the upper upper echelons, but it wasn't the be all and end all so it was there something that was more were important to you during your school days.

Clive Prevost: 10:03

Yeah, being balanced, and being able to do things outside of a typical school education. And by they, I mean, just being a kid, I suppose we had a wonderful suburb, which was cordoned off. And one could mess around with the neighbours, neighbours kids rather, and ride your bikes or whatever the case, it's just a matter of being able to, you know, to get out rather than sit in front of a in those days a chalkboard and maybe an overhead projector.

Andy: 10:39

Yeah. What about parental influence on you? Did you feel much pressure or expectation? Or what was the expectation?

Clive Prevost: 10:48

No, not at all. Parents were always very supportive of whatever my brother and I wanted to do. And just a case of, you know, choose the direction and off you go. I wouldn't even say there was pressure to go to university or anything of that nature, I guess, because they had their own experiences, being a bit older than other parents in the school that I went to, at least, my parents were in their late 30s, when they had me and then still had my brother afterwards. So I guess there's a bit of maturity about it, there was no push to do X or Y.

Andy: 11:27

Right. And when it came, then to deciding between dentistry and accounting, how seriously were you about dentistry? And how did that decision, how did that play out?

Clive Prevost: 11:39

There were a number of options other than dentistry and accounting. And the one thing that stuck in my mind was a chap by the name of Sol Kerzner, and I don't know if you've ever heard of him, he was a entrepreneur, who started out as a hotelier, and then bought up hotel after hotel and eventually started a huge listed group, and then went on to build a thing called Sun City, just outside of Johannesburg, probably about hour and a half, two hours outside of Johannesburg, when gambling was completely illegal within South Africa. That was extremely successful. And then he went on to found the One and Only that brand, as well as develop Atlantis, I think it's in Bahamas, if I'm not mistaken. So with that in mind, with him in mind, I always thought if he's a CA, and he can do that, maybe this is a ticket to being an entrepreneur and or being involved in business. So that was the reason I went the accounting route.

Andy: 12:55

So you have been influenced by an entrepreneur, obviously a visionary entrepreneur, very successful one and seen this was potential routes. And say you apply then did you to study accounting? Did you join a firm before you went to university? How did that work

Clive Prevost: 13:10

A little bit before that, I actually started working when I was 14, to get a bit of pocket money. And also, I wanted to learn more about business. So a small, very small business managed to get ahold of me and asked me to work, vacations and any other days for that matter, within their business, and this particular business, also very entrepreneurial, was started out by an American. What he did is he started up a company importing stylized styluses. I'm not sure what the correct term would be, but the little needle that one would use for record players, what he did was import from Switzerland and Japan, repackage and then delivered to various music stores within Cape Town specifically and elsewhere in South Africa. That particular business was then handed over to a family friend. And it blossomed for a while because as you know record players quietly made their exit and along came CDs and whatever else. And that was my first foray if you want to call it that into business at age 14, and that continued until age, I guess, 18 When I went to university, and then when I was at university, it was a matter of working for a small audit firm to see if I actually enjoyed it. That was the idea behind it anyway. Yes. Also, other vacation jobs such as counting money in a vault, in in a bank,

Andy: 14:56

Literally counting money?

Clive Prevost: 14:58

Literally counting money, from eight o'clock in the morning until four o'clock in the afternoon. It was the most dirty job you can imagine, you know, imagine how many things have touched all those banknotes. And it was in a time when people used banknotes and didn't have virtual accounts, and so on and so forth. Yeah, it was interesting. I was given the opportunity to take a break. And by taking a break, I meant getting in the armoured vehicle, together with all the chaps who were armed, and then delivering cash to all their branches. So it was interesting and fun at the same time. I'm not sure that I'd do it these days, but it was certainly fun in those days.

Andy: 15:47

So tell us a little bit about the journey from there, Clive.

Clive Prevost: 15:51

Yeah, so BComm, and then what the university called the certificate in the theory of accounting, essentially, it was an honours course, and CA chartered accountant accreditation after that. But seeing as me being open and just in these four walls, I did fail.

Andy: 16:12

There's nobody listening,

Clive Prevost: 16:16

And the reason was, I spent probably six months of that first year on the beach coming from Cape Town. As I said, previously, I was pretty much raised on the beach. I can't remember a week going by without being on the beach. So yes, my first year was half the year on the beach.

Andy: 16:38

So you got the balance slightly wrong. Yeah, first. Yeah. So were you surprised when you failed?

Clive Prevost: 16:44

Yeah, it was a wake up call. Because I had, I wouldn't say always, but I had some of the ability to, you know, doing work the night before and being able to pass the next day. And when I didn't pass and didn't pass the supplementary exam, either. Yeah, it was a wake up call, you actually have to apply yourself. And it was it was a good lesson. I don't regret it. I don't regret being by a beach. And I also don't regret having been given that wake up call, because I'm not sure whether I would have been able to get to the end of the degree. Without that. So yeah, possibly even who knows. But maybe that was the right time.

Andy: 17:32

Yeah. So is there anything else from university days?

Clive Prevost: 17:37

Yeah, maybe the going back to the vacation at the small audit firm. The one job that sticks in my mind and stuck in my nose and stuck in the clothes, was being asked to go and audit a sausage casing business. As you know, sausage casings are essentially the intestine of whichever animal and this particular business was opposite the abattoir. And you can imagine all these casings having come in there to be cleaned. And then yours truly, to go and count literally hundreds of 1000s of these casings. It was the worst job I've ever done in my entire career. And right there, and then I had a very good thought don't ever, ever been charge of a warehouse because if you have to count casings, no, never again. Of course, having gone through articles, we had to do a whole bunch of different stocktakes being climbing up to the top of silos and measuring grain, counting stock in a supermarket, various different things, but it taught you a bunch of stuff. And maybe just the last example which may be of international interest. Chris Barnard, the first heart surgeon or the surgeon who performed the first heart transplant, his daughter started up a dress shop, very high end dress shop, where they would measure and tailor to the ones of the local clientele. And that was also one of my clients from that particular audit firm. And it was very interesting, engaging, firstly with the daughter, and knowing or getting to know a bit more about her father who I did meet at one of the events. And of course, seeing all the models traipsing in and out is interesting,

Andy: 19:51

but they don't tell you this about the accounting in a recruitment fair, my impression was obviously it's not about numbers and balance sheets and all This stuff but not so much about you really are going to be understanding the nuts and bolts, the sausage wrappings or casings of the whole piece, or it could be high end fashion or whatever you will get to explore and see how these businesses work.

Clive Prevost: 20:16

Exactly, it gives gives you the opportunity to see where you wish to go and in which area you wish to be involved in, in a future career.

Andy: 20:27

Yes, because you get to look at a lot of companies in a short space of time don't you.

Clive Prevost: 20:31

Yes. Yes.

Andy: 20:32

A few weeks here a couple of weeks there throughout the year. I hadn't thought about that. And obviously, I've got this interest in what people have visibility at, you know, how people choose their jobs and how difficult it is when you're growing up. And you have very little idea what any job is really, you see teachers you see nurses, you see policemen you see, you know, people whose jobs are out there in the public domain, but you don't see a lot of the behind the scenes job. So there's a good thought accountancy exposure.

Clive Prevost: 20:59

Yeah, couldn't agree more with you. Because even today, let's take a quite a popular job, I guess, a data scientist, well, what the hell is all that about? Certainly, you know, when I was growing up, I don't think that job even existed. But today, the job certainly does exist and pays very well just by the way, but certainly, it could be of interest to many, many people wanting to figure out their next step.

Andy: 21:29

Thank you, Clive. So you had your audit job during vacation, so you've got a flavour for what accountancy would be like, and then were you happy that once you left university, that would be what you would pursue?

Clive Prevost: 21:41

Oh, no, absolutely not.

Andy: 21:43

Okay. I am getting this so wrong. What happened?

Clive Prevost: 21:46

Auditing is akin to having to add up a telephone book, in my opinion, it bored me to hell. And all I wanted to do is get out of auditing and anything associated with auditing as quickly as possible. So perhaps the logical next step was being conscripted into the army. And I thought there and then that I would give it a year or two because conscription was two years, and then decide what I really wanted to do. Once I came back now that I qualified as a chartered accountant, so I went into the Army only took six months of basic training for me to work out that that was something else I couldn't do, because it just didn't sit well with me. The job itself was boredom, boredom, boredom. And as an alternative, the government was looking for people to join the local, well actually National Tax Office. So I elected to do that. And ended up being in a room together with a chap or a friend who I had befriended in my very first class at school, believe it or not, his parents had moved to another city. And we ended up in the same same office, having done exactly the same courses at university, different universities, of course, and now we were working on exactly the same topic, which was the rollout of VAT in South Africa.

Andy: 23:33

So you'd met him at school? How many years previously?

Clive Prevost: 23:36

Oh, when I was five years old?

Andy: 23:39

And how long was he? How long had you met him for then?

Clive Prevost: 23:43

we kept in touch and the families are kept in touch because the families have become friendly, although they were in different cities. So let's just say, over the next 20 odd years, we had kept in touch but literally once every two years, or a small world and so

Andy: 24:05

you walked into you walked into a meeting or how did this sudden reconnection happen?

Clive Prevost: 24:12

Well, we ended up in the same offices in Durban where the first assignment was, and then when we were approached to roll up VAT in South Africa, both of us were approached then to transfer to Pretoria

Andy: 24:31

right so you find yourself there working alongside in VAT specialising in VAT VAT.

Clive Prevost: 24:40

GST. So the government decided to move the way of VAT and our job was to research other systems of VAT, the ones that I can remember of hand Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and then incorporate these systems or processes into processes that were eventually adopted in South Africa.

Andy: 25:15

So quite a significant role to be doing, then at a fairly young age.

Clive Prevost: 25:22

Yeah, and quite honestly, exceptional civil servants, if I can call him that the commissioner and so on, because we work quite closely with the commissioner in those days and a bunch of attorneys. But yeah, I would go back to saying, and I'm sure in many other countries, there are many, many civil servants who provide a fantastic service to the public out there, be it in a professional capacity. And unfortunately, in this country, it has gone backwards somewhat, because of the appointment of political affiliates who don't necessarily know what they're doing in the job. But yeah, that's a story for another day.

Andy: 26:08

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Clive Prevost: 28:20

Okay, so here we go again, I thought VAT tax, I'll become a tax specialist. That only lasted for a couple of months. And deep down. I was always hankering after trying my luck at sales and marketing. And Andy, you've known me for a couple of years, you'll know that I'm possibly more suited to that side of the business than being let's call it a dreary accountant. So even with the accounting background, I still wanted to try my luck at sales and marketing.

Andy: 28:56

Where did that come from? Where was that your entrepreneur was at sort of admiring these entrepreneurs and their business with the stylists were had this sort of idea that you wanted to try sales or marketing

Clive Prevost: 29:08

Yeah it had come from that, as well as knowing that I didn't have any expertise in that area. And I just wanted to give it a go and see if I was attuned to it. Or whether I was just plain rubbish.

Andy: 29:25

Yeah, to go and test that test it out. Yeah,

Clive Prevost: 29:29

so I applied to a number of companies and eventually, a company by the name of Automakers, which was an automotive company approached me and took me on, however, as an accountant in a sales and marketing division,

Andy: 29:50

foiled again.

Clive Prevost: 29:54

In the back of my mind, I thought, well, it's close enough. I'm sure I'll get to learn about what people do. In advertising companies and in marketing companies, let me learn. If it strikes my fancy, well, maybe maybe I'll move over in that direction. But the accounting position in their marketing company wasn't a bad thing. Because once again, you got exposed to not only sales and marketing, but to product to parts and accessories warehouses. Here we go with warehouses again, and in a number of other areas.

Andy: 30:30

So you had this solid platform, which was the accounting area that you knew, from which to explore other aspects within a business where you have access to that and exposure to that. That makes sense. That makes sense.

Clive Prevost: 30:44

It didn't take me too long to realise that I really wanted to give sales and marketing go. Because people in sales and marketing generally, especially in that company, didn't have any financial acumen. And quite frankly, were trying to spend to the last cent an entire budget for the year because they knew it would disappear the next year. But there were ways and means of, let's say, arranging the budget, so as to spend it in the right places at the right time. But anyway, cut long story short, there was one job that no one wanted. Because everybody in that particular OEM, hated the thought of having to sell used cars. And the then Sales Director approached me and he said, we can't find anybody to do this job, would you be prepared to do it? And there wasn't a moment of hesitation? That's Yes, of course. Let me give it a go. I love cars. I love being involved now with sales and marketing. And as long as you allow me to do my own thing, then I'll take on the job. And that's exactly what happened. He just said you have 4000 vehicles, we need to get rid of them in one year. They're all used some of them and been standing in the fields or the filth. As we note here for over a year, the rats had eaten the wiring harnesses. And the rats had gotten inside the cars and eaten upholstery. There were ex rental cars, you can just imagine, nobody wanted them. They were completely unloved. So it fell on myself and a very small team, one salesman, one admin person, and one assistant to essentially get rid of these vehicles. And we did it in a year. And we actually made profit out of doing it. So that just confirmed to me that I was in my groove. So to say, and this is my niche.

Andy: 32:47

Yeah, it's really interesting, so much there. Because first of all, there's the guy who came to school who talked about use cars. And you thought as one thing I'm never going to do. Thanks for Thanks for helping me. eliminate that from my inquiries. But then circumstances changing. And you being able to look on that opportunity from a different perspective and see that actually, under these circumstances, this is going in the right direction for me. And

Clive Prevost: 33:15

was so wonderful is that sales director was good what to his word. And he let me do whatever I wanted. As long as I got rid of all the vehicles by the end of the year. And it didn't take

Andy: 33:27

He gave you, you had a very clear objective, but he didn't meddle in how you did it, he did. And what was also interesting for me from what you described was looking at the way sales or marketing people going about the job and recognising that they didn't have really the right consideration in terms of the budget that they had, and you with your accounting background, could look at sales and marketing tasks and think Hang on, there's a better way to do this a more businesslike way, but it's more commercial way to do it.

Clive Prevost: 33:55

As I said, it wasn't particularly rocket science. It's all about getting to know your customer. And the customer wasn't necessarily the person who drove the car. It was a dealer who was purchasing the vehicle. And once I understood that, and the people around me understood that we made sure that we engaged with the dealers as often and as much as we possibly could. And that of course, led to the result because it wasn't too long and talking about four months, six months after we got that particular division up and going. That sales just started to sell themselves. So to say, Yeah, let's let's say another year, another 18 months I can't recall. And I was approached to start up a joint venture with a bank, which was the first joint venture financial services joint venture between an OEM and a bank in this country but for the same OEM of course, so I ummed and aahed because it really wasn't what I was wanting to do. I still wanted to sell cars. But I was strong armed into trying something different. And yes, once again, it was starting at the, at the bottom, getting the right people around you and making something out of nothing. Yeah, making sure that it was successful. So that particular joint venture with that same bank is still in operation today. So we're talking about late 80s, early 90s. Yeah, that same JV is still in operation. And it was a model around which other OEMs formed JVs with that particular bank, which are, as I say, still in operation today.

Andy: 35:45

Are you able to say who the OEM was that you sold the cars?

Clive Prevost: 35:48

Yeah sure so as I said, locally, it was a company by the name of Automakers Limited, but they manufactured and distributed Nissan, passenger vehicles, Nissan, commercial vehicles, both medium and heavy commercial vehicles. Because both of those were manufactured in this country. And then they also manufactured a Fiat model for Fiat itself, and imported and distributed Alpha Romeo. So it was quite a large variety of vehicles that one could get involved with if one

Andy: 36:28

Yeah. And so they wanted to have a joint venture with a bank to provide financial services. And that's what you helped set up late 80s, early 90s. And that's still going strong now. And that model is being replicated has been replicated with that bank with other OEMs, since so that's, again, something very interesting to have in your background that in the terms of the longevity of that part of a legacy really,

Clive Prevost: 36:53

Well Andy, the irony of it all. That particular bank became so powerful in this country that when I later joined BMW Financial Services, which was not a joint venture, I and the team had to compete against that. Even today, it is still the biggest competitor to that particular brand.

Andy: 37:15

Oh, wow. Yeah, interesting. You'd know the ins and outs of how it was set up and then faced with competing against your own handiwork.

Clive Prevost: 37:23

Well, what comes around goes around, and we can talk about it later. But one of the jobs that I'm doing at the moment, is actually consulting back to that particular bank in order to get them realigned as far as a legal case is concerned. So yeah, what comes around goes around.

Andy: 37:45

Very good, very good. So that consistency of relationship and these things that stay as a thread throughout our careers, organisations and people

Clive Prevost: 37:54

Well, Andy I'm glad you you brought up the word relationship, because, you know, even with you and I, and we got back somewhat, we've we've seen each other, even passing each other in the airport in Singapore, if I recall, totally coincidentally, and it revolves around relationships and continuing those relationships going forward.

Andy: 38:17

I totally agree.

Clive Prevost: 38:18

It's a good thing to remember, business is not only about numbers, and how cheap things are, it's also about relationships.

Andy: 38:26

And the number of times my guests say something like, and then I got a call from or then this person came back to me, or then the guy who had been my boss, or the woman who'd been my boss here contacted me and said, there's not a lot of applying for jobs going on in the conversations that I'm having job applications happen Post University, and then it's all about and then this came up, or this person tapped me on the shoulder or I met this person. So I like to make sure people are aware of that going on. And the more you have a network, and the more you invest in your network respectfully and with integrity, and with a genuine desire to build connection and relationships, then really good thing to do. So now you're finding yourself working with that bank from 30 odd years ago, in a different capacity, very good. Where we were now you set up that financial services, JV for Automakers to be able to provide financial services for all these different car brands that they were manufacturing and selling. How long did you do that for and what what was the reason for moving from there?

Clive Prevost: 39:38

That was about two, two and a half years and then just to confirm what you've just said now, I then got a call.

Andy: 39:49

Sorry to spoil the surprise but

Clive Prevost: 39:52

Yeah no surprise. I got a call from a headhunter looking for somebody to do sales and marketing within the financial services company of BMW.

Andy: 40:05

So now you're known as a sales and marketing person, you are being approached for sales and marketing.

Clive Prevost: 40:12

Exactly, exactly. So I went for the interview, the interview was with a German gentleman, he was the regional head, as well as the then CEO. And they didn't offer me the job. And I did a bit of homework. And at that point, I'm sure the the company and people around the company don't mind me saying so. But at that point, in the late 90s, the company was touch and go. And I spoke to prior CEOs, and they advised me not to go, I'd heard about some auditors who were floating around in the company. And that also raised a couple of alarm bells. But even after that, I thought to myself, No, I have this accounting background, I have a sales and marketing background, I've done this JV, maybe this is a good thing to try my hand at, and see if I can make any difference, because I like taking things that are not working and making something of it. Anyway, I joined on the first day, I arrived at the entrance. And nobody knew that I was about to start. Meanwhile, the CEO had been, his services had been terminated. And nobody was expecting me. So after a song and dance, I ended up in the CEOs office for a month, while people try to figure out what I should be doing in the company, just a mess. And eventually, I found my way out of the CEOs office, into the sales and marketing office. And from there it was sales and marketing full speed ahead.

Andy: 42:03

Interesting that you were, you were almost warned off by people who had the inside track. Yeah, and but you consciously thought, actually, now I've got the skills, I've got the accounting skills, I've got the sales and marketing skills, I enjoy fixing things that are broken. Let's go and have a go. That's a very positive curiosity thing to be driven by not not driven by security, or I need to know I need to get something that's going to endure and take the safe option.

Clive Prevost: 42:34

I'm sure you've done those assessments, which tries to put you in a box. But one of the elements that always comes up quite strongly for me is what I call achiever. So I guess that's where it's coming from. I want to make sure that whatever I take actually results in something better than what I received it as.

Andy: 42:58

Yeah. So you got into that sales that you had the obviously very, very odd situation when you arrived and the CEOs gone. And nobody knows you're coming, which is not that auspicious of start. Were you having second thoughts when that happened? Did you think hang on maybe this is a bit messier than I had anticipated?

Clive Prevost: 43:15

I did. But I'd really made the move and cut my ties, not entirely with the previous company. So there was no going back, it would be a matter of now going to find something new again. And quite honestly, I did put my irons in the fire as they say. But yeah, one thing led to another and it became very successful. Not due to me, I'll be very honest with you. It was due to that entire team. Another gentleman who you will recall a chap by the name of Keith Dye, he took over as the CEO. And he also had this view of let's set the goals for the year. Now go and do it. And if you need me, I'm around. If you don't, then don't bother me. I'm gonna go out and play golf.

Andy: 44:12

Yeah, I had the pleasure and privilege to work briefly with Keith and mentioned him on one of my recent podcasts, perhaps we'll get him as a guest. One day that would be really good to hear his story. So you had a good time in South Africa in BMW Financial Services. And but I know you moved around the world a fair bit. So talk us through how that came about.

Clive Prevost: 44:34

I had no intention of leaving the country to be honest. So

Andy: 44:39

let's add that to the list of things you had no intention of doing, the growing list.

Clive Prevost: 44:46

So a chap by the name of Frank Stenner, then regional head of the Australasian region, approached me and he said to me, please go to Japan we've got an issue there, shouldn't take more than six months go and sorted out. So, I thought and thought again and turn the page over a couple of times. And, okay, let's go and give it a go. It's only six months, I've just built a home. But don't worry, just close it up, turn the key, and off I went. But then about three months later, the meeting was called in an all associate meeting, all staff meeting in Japan was called. And Frank then proceeded to announce me as the new CEO of BMW Financial Services, I was terrified, because I had no intention of staying. And I just assumed that I was there to assist and enable the company in one way or the other for that period of six months. Besides which I still had in the back of my mind, I was coming home to this new home. So I didn't,

Andy: 46:03

there was no consultation about that you were just until then you found out at the meeting.

Clive Prevost: 46:07

So I approached him, I said, you what? What's going on here? He said to me, if I had asked you to go to Japan, as an expat, and go and live there for 3, 4, 5 years, you would never have gone, this is my way of getting you here. So live with it, or leave. Having worked in a Japanese company before Nissan, I had some appreciation of how things worked. And one of the topics would be not to lose face in front of other people. And to go and tell everybody now that I wasn't going to be the CEO, and I was now going to go back to South Africa just didn't sit well with me, and certainly wouldn't have sat, well, well sat well with that culture. So I accepted the position and stayed on for three years, we did manage to take the company to new highs, set new records, both turnover of if you want to call it that in the financial services environment, as well as profitability. And three years hence, there was yet another knock on the door by the new regional head, Alan Crookes.

Andy: 47:27

Can we before we move on Clive, what a little bit about working in Japan and having not really wanted to go there having thought, Okay, six months at a pinch, I can do this. You obviously you had to mentally choose to accept it once, you know, three months in, okay, I'm going to choose something different to you and you're successful. Do you have some positive reflections from your time, there?

Clive Prevost: 47:52

Yes and no, the positive things that came out was the ability to work within another culture. Learning another language certainly wasn't fluent, by the end of three years, but I could get by giving the taxi directions and ordering off a menu and things like that. It was being able to work within a very different setup a culture, let's say where things weren't the same as as home, I'll be honest, I tried many times to make jokes, which I thought were going to be funny, but I think that culture missed the mark by miles. Because humour is very different to South African humour, or the humour of the UK or America for that matter. So it's got somewhat lost, but it again taught me something and that you need to adapt to the culture within which you're working. So I would say those are the positive things. And maybe something in addition to mention, Japan was always held out as being very advanced in terms of medicine, and banking, and this and that, and quite frankly, it was exactly the opposite. I was quite horrified. The first time I was handed my bank book, if you want to call it that. I'd had a bank card since the 1980s. In this country, and everything worked with with cards, people didn't need to issue checks, things were done by debit order, and so on. And here we go into Japan. And the first thing I get when opening a bank account was a bank book, where someone had to stamp and write in the amount of money you wish to withdraw. It was quite staggering. You know, this was now in the year 2004. Yeah, these were some of the things that sort of immediately popped to mind. Of course that the Japanese politeness The, I suppose let's boil it down to culture. But the things that didn't sit well with me were the Japanese penchant for working long hours where they didn't necessarily need to work long hours, I didn't enjoy that I also didn't enjoy the culture of having to lobby everything throughout the organisation. Because the so called president of a Japanese company, literally is the last person to know, in the way in which I experience things. And everything had been lobbied beforehand. And things had been arranged and agreed before the meeting with your client or with your partner or whoever. And I wanted to be part of all those discussions, I wanted to be part of all those decisions. And quite frankly, it just didn't work like that. So I can't call it negative. It's just a different way of working. The other thing that that was quite tough, I went across single. And as a single expat, it's quite difficult to become friends with other Japanese to start with, and other expats because most other expats went across with families, and generally families socialised with other families. So it was not a an easy time as a single person. Yes, you could hang out at certain places and bars or whatever. But that's also not my scene as you would well know, Andy. Yeah, I'd like to socialise, but not necessarily to go out and drink and all fall apart. Yeah, it was difficult for me in that respect.

Andy: 51:52

Yeah. So what tends to happen is your kids go to school, and they make friends and the friends have parents and the parents become your friends. That's how it works. It's very easy if you've got kids with you. And then you said Alan Crookes called.

Clive Prevost: 52:07

Yes. So Alan had taken over the position from Frank Stenner. And he called because he had a vacancy for the CEO position in Australia. And it was a matter of then transferring to Australia. And I think it was August of two, I can't recall the actual date. But anyway, it was in the early 2000s. Yeah, transferred over to Australia, where I was then asked to assimilate the New Zealand Company into the Australian business. That was interesting, because, of course, there was a bit of resistance, but it soon became business as usual. And one thing led to another and we also managed to take the company from being somewhat lacklustre, because it had been without a CEO for a while to enjoying record sales, record profits. So I was quite proud of that.

Andy: 53:09

At what point were you not planning on going back to South Africa? Because originally, you're planning on being back home after six months, and then now it's three years and then you

Clive Prevost: 53:19

And an empty house? Remember? Brand new, with brand new furniture. 470 square metres of home with nobody in it. So I always had in the back of my mind, well, I suppose I better get back to actually either living in the home or selling it one way or the other. So at that point, I was in two minds. I didn't know whether I really wanted to stay in Australia because there's some positives, like any country and there are also some major negatives, including the very first time staying in a in what I would call a quite an upmarket neighbourhood in a block of flats or apartments. And that very first week that I was in Australia, there was a gunfight outside of my apartment. I actually learned it was a drug deal that had gone down and gone badly down. But yeah, as I say, it's not all roses in Australia. So it got to about halfway through my assignment in Australia and Alan advised me that the then South African CEO, had left to join BMW in Germany, and that he would like me then to move from Australia, back into South Africa because most of the second line were expats and he wanted a South African in that position, hence, my accepting the offer. I guess it was an instruction And moving back to South Africa.

Andy: 55:04

But when it came to going to Australia from Japan, you were quite comfortable to do that at that point.

Clive Prevost: 55:11

Yeah. I'm quite flexible. I can go anywhere in the world. There's certain markets that I would prefer not to go to. But I'm very open to working anywhere and everywhere, because it's all part of your own personal enrichment.

Andy: 55:30

Yeah. So in total, you're away for four, four and a half years, something like that?

Clive Prevost: 55:36

Yeah five years or so.

Andy: 55:38

And then back to be a local South African CEO in the South African operation. How was it when you came back after this time overseas?

Clive Prevost: 55:53

Things had moved on, of course, and the company had moved on. There was a completely new management structure, although many of the other associates were still employed. They were long term employees. So at that point, there were two gentleman from the UK, both of whom, who who have moved on to much greater things, and I'll name them, one being Mike Dennett, who is the head of BMW Financial Services, the UK, UK, and the other person being Mike Wetherell, also from the UK, who has now gone on to be a regional head of the Australasian region, so small world, and it was absolutely fantastic to have these two gentlemen as part of the team. And it was through the 2008 2009 crisis. There was lots of argy bargy, and I wore my sales and marketing hat unashamedly as the CEO from time to time, because let's just say, we had some very tough discussions, but it all ended well. And the company came out exceptionally well after that. The great thing in working with other expats and for BMW, specifically, is the opportunities that one gets and while I was in Japan, the CFO, the then CFO became the CFO of financial services Thailand, because it's Christian Wiedmann, and is now the CEO of the sales company of the Japanese entity. Yeah, there are many other examples where people have managed to use what they've learned and assimilate the culture of that particular environment, and then use it to best effect the next market they go to. So yeah, it was a good experience.

Andy: 57:56

On that point. Clive, how had you changed? Had you changed when you came back? Or had you...

Clive Prevost: 58:02

Absolutely

Andy: 58:03

In what in what way?

Clive Prevost: 58:04

When I was originally in, in South Africa, because we had such a small staff complement, I used to do everything myself, whether it's the PowerPoint presentation, whether it was engaging with the advertising agency, whether it was a meeting with a dealer, or whatever, I was involved. And it wasn't for no reason I was working myself to midnight, two o'clock in the morning, and so on and so forth. When I went to Japan, I quickly realised that I couldn't do that I had to work through other people. I had to work through my management. same went for Australia, although, of course, it was much easier to go around the office in Australia and engage with people because everybody spoke English. Coming back to South Africa, you ask, had I changed? Yes, most definitely. I'd had to become far more a CEO, like in my dealings with management. And for that matter, with people outside of the company.

Andy: 59:10

Thank you for sharing that. It's fascinating. I coach managers different levels in their career, and to hear someone that you know, from that senior position as senior as you were saying, you had to learn that there's a point where you had to learn to delegate more and to to approach the role differently, and you had to

Clive Prevost: 59:27

100% change the way you did things. You said, be more CEO like with your team and with external partners. So could you just add some, a little bit on what that's like? I would say not expecting 100% all the time, or 150%. I'm a bit of, or used to be let's say, a bit of a perfectionist. And when I want things done, I want them done 100% At least, but maybe 80 is good enough. And in many instances 60 is good enough and Sometimes one has to accept that 60 or 80%, is good enough in order to move to the next point in that engagement, whether it is your own management, whether it's an engagement with your head office, or customers for that matter, or dealers for that matter, because there's only so many hours in the day. And if one was then going to try and make everything 100%, you just be wasting time. So yeah, I would try and summarise it as that. I would also say that, in the past, I've tried to accommodate as many people as possible in order to get to a consensus viewpoint. But I learned very quickly in Japan, for that matter, and Australia, moving on, that actually, in certain circumstances one had to be autocratic, not every. But certainly, if you had a vision, and what was happening, and the vision had been agreed with everybody around you, then one had to push forward that vision when people try to detract, or perhaps push for a different direction. And you have to learn by your mistakes. And sometimes you do make a mistake, and sometimes you do have to backtrack. But having said that, what had become clear to me is that my gut feeling tended to be the right feeling. And my gut feeling tended to play out as being what was necessary for that particular company at that particular time, resulting in a good result, a better result, or whatever the case, not only for myself, but also for the rest of the company that's important.

Andy: 1:01:49

And if you are able, because you've learned so much along the way, and been able to make mistakes and learn from them. Are there things you look back on your younger self, where you if you could jump in a time machine and drop back and have a word with yourself? Are there things you wish you'd known a bit earlier? Or you think you could have benefited if you'd learned a bit earlier?

Clive Prevost: 1:02:10

Yes, I'm not to appoint people like me, I learned that in my first job,

Andy: 1:02:17

let's say a bit more about that.

Clive Prevost: 1:02:21

Yes, my first position, I think I told you at some point that I was the youngest General Manager to be appointed to that company. And I thought what that company needed is somebody like me, so I appointed that person. And eventually I had to terminate their services, because I realised that actually, companies need a variety of skills, experience, makeup, etc, etc, in order to prosper. And yeah, as I said, I learned that quite quickly. So into the future, I relied very much on my HR in order to provide the right person for the job, rather than going for somebody like me, as I said,

Andy: 1:03:06

and these are things that you can read about, I obviously, am focused on certain things. So I read, and I listen to stuff. And I noticed this out there. And I just hope that by hearing, you know real life CEO, telling the story, my listeners can also appreciate along with me that welll maybe we do have to do this stuff, maybe we have to work a little bit harder on diversity. And maybe there are genuine benefits of getting different perspectives, different team members around,

Clive Prevost: 1:03:38

I'd like to dwell on that on the word diversity for just two minutes. Coming from South Africa. Before going to Japan, we were really a very diverse crowd of people, mainly because it had been legislated. So for as long as I can recall, not only from a racial perspective, but also from a gender perspective, it was important for companies to have a balance, my first surprise in Japan where they were no female managerial staff fact not even supervisory stuff. And I questioned that. And of course, the answer was will in those days, ladies, essentially do the admin and make the tea if necessary, but that's pretty much the extent to which ladies would progress. We changed that in Japan while I was there, and I'm very proud to say that the COO is in Japan is one of those ladies today. She is the COO and moving on to do Australia and I'm guessing some Australian listeners might not like me saying this. But when I walked around that office for the first time I questioned where are all the people of colour? T his is not making sense for me because surely we have customers or or maybe even dealers who are of colour if I can use that expression. And yes, I got a very similar reaction out of my Australian colleagues. So yes, just going back to the word diversity, it's important, very important because it does balance, not only the needs of the company, but I think also supports the company to get to a better level or a better result.

Andy: 1:05:36

Absolutely. And I just take this opportunity, while we're talking about it to say, I would like to have more diversity in terms of the guests that we have, we have lots of nationalities, which is great, and we have some women, but it's a very small proportion. And we have some people of colour, but not that many. And so I'm very open, if people want to recommend if they have leaders who they respect or young rising stars, who they think should be celebrated, then please reach out to me, and we would love to use this platform to do that. So thanks for going into that topic, Clive. In terms of other learnings, what are some of the other learnings you've had

Clive Prevost: 1:06:20

supporting people who show seriousness in getting ahead? Let's go back to diversity. And I'm going to use an example. There was a lady Tracey Leith, who started out as a temporary employee in South Africa. And her job was to phone up customers and tell them to pay, that was a job, one thing led to another. And she then indicated her interest in at some point becoming the COO the Chief Operating Officer of that particular company, even without any tertiary education. So we put a plan in place. And she eventually ended up doing an MBA and becoming the COO of the local organisation. And shortly thereafter, moving over to the UK as the COO of a much larger organisation. So coming back to what else have I learned, it is supporting people who actually really wants to get ahead. And I'm not just giving lip service to wanting to do this course of that course. And I'm not really serious about it, to be honest. So yeah, I would say that is one of my learning support those people who are deserving of your support, and doesn't matter when they graduate or when they become the president or the CEO or whatever. continue supporting him continue having that engagement with those people because it's all part of the, I guess, coaching.

Andy: 1:07:57

Yeah. And I think Tracey is just down the road from where I'm recording this. Now. She's BMW in the UK, isn't she in there we go. Farnborough. I was fortunate enough that our paths crossed, Clive and I got to be on the same CEO team, as you at some point when I was early into that level, if you like. And I remember being quite in awe of your outspokenness, you are not afraid to say what you thought and say what you saw.

Clive Prevost: 1:08:29

I was thinking I was being diplomatic.

Andy: 1:08:33

So I think that's fascinating. Yeah. Things you, you think, as you perhaps should have been more outspoken, and I was already as a as a new as a new member of the team thinking, my goodness, this guy is not afraid to say what he thinks. So that was I thought that was quite funny. But you think you should have been more more outspoken?

Clive Prevost: 1:08:57

It depends on the circumstance and the timing. I think there are times when when could be and should be. And the other times where half the battle is won, if you just walk away?

Andy: 1:09:10

Yeah, pick your battles. Yeah. And another topic that comes up often is the one of trust and how much we should trust people and whether we automatically trust people or whether they have to earn it. So for you do you tend to trust people? And then until they lose it? Or do people have to really earn it before you trust them? How do you approach that?

Clive Prevost: 1:09:33

Bit of both and I'm also learning. I've gone through phases where I trust too easily. Then I go through phases where let's say I'm distrusting, because I've also had a couple of experiences with colleagues who have defrauded the company. And it was because of being trusting of them. And that's where I've also woken up from time to time, and had to re evaluate my balance of trust and distrust, because you can be disappointed and highly disappointed. And that's where you can be, let's say the needle goes to distrust very quickly, irrespective of who the people are.

Andy: 1:10:28

I guess if someone's going to defraud the company, it's not because of you, they do it. But it's the systems in place have allowed them to do that. And if you are more trusting, it's easier for them to do that.

Clive Prevost: 1:10:41

Agreed. Because when when you ask the questions, and the answers seem to be appropriate, you become gullible.

Andy: 1:10:50

You hear what you want to hear. And you Yes, you accept it. Yeah. And what about another recurring theme, if you like, and one that I know, I personally was slow to act where action was needed, Ed Eppley, who has been a guest at a mentor of mine, you know, and Well, I first met him in South Africa, actually, he used to say, trouble is, Andy, you've got a Jesus complex. You want and think you can save everybody. That is, is also something you've mentioned, that you've learned along the way is, is you need to take sometimes you need to take action on underperformers more correctly than you might be comfortable.

Clive Prevost: 1:11:32

Yep and doesn't necessarily have to be in a rude way, or a way in which it destroys the person, I'll give you my very first experience of having to take up an issue with a colleague, this particular lady was just not doing what she was required to do. And after coaching, I eventually got to the point where I said to her, actually, you either need to find another position within the company, or we need you to exit one or the other. She hated me, she avoided me, she eventually found a position in the company in a completely different area. It was in training. And it was years after I bumped into her in the road. And she said to me, the best thing that you ever did for me, was giving me my marching orders. Because see where I am now. I made a success of training in that particular company. I now have my own training company, I employ other people. And I'm living the life of Riley, so to say,

Andy: 1:12:39

Yeah. And that's how you want it to be, isn't it? And I love the way you say it doesn't have to be unpleasant. It can be done with the best interests of the person that if it's not working, then someone has to help them sort out what what would be better for them to go on to talk about what you're doing. Now, Clive, because you've recently moved on from BMW Financial Services, I want to talk about the consulting that you're doing now please because you have some unique, literally unique experience that are very relevant time in the transformation of the automotive industry globally. And you're in a position to share that now as an independent. So tell us about it.

Clive Prevost: 1:13:19

Thanks, Andy, thanks for the opportunity. About two years before leaving BMW. I was involved in the conversion of dealerships from Franchise the franchise model or wholesale model to agency, quite honestly, more at a senior level because I was part of the steering committee. But that was what was so brilliant in a relationship with the local sales company. At every stage in that project. This financial services company as well as the the NSE had representation at every level. We even had one of our, our, say, financial services, employees taking on the task of pricing within the NSE project, which was fantastic for that particular individual and of course, fantastic for our financial services organisation because we could see what was going on and we went into the detail. Anyway, it took about two years for that project to go live. And I then retired from BMW, and decided after a whole period of two months, that I needed to start working again because watching paint dry, working in the garden, tinkering with the car or whatever is just not for me. I need to be active and active in the workplace that I'm familiar with and enjoy at the end of the day. So I started up a company by the name of Torq Consulting Services, spelled t o r q. And the reason for that is because t o r q u e is already registered. So it has some association with automotive, of course. But it can also refer to brand power, I guess. So that's the reason for the name. And what I have been doing over the last 18 months, is consulting to various companies with regard to that conversion from, as I said, franchise, a wholesale model to agency. And one of the clients has just become active locally in this market, and is proceeding to roll this out internationally. The other client is a UK client. And yeah, as it turns out, they are still in the process. And then of course, I've had interactions with clients in Japan, Australia, Korea, the US. So it's, it's growing, and people are wanting to know more, because of this global move or international move to agency.

Andy: 1:16:19

As I say, very relevant. And I'm glad you explained very much international, you can help organisations internationally, you've got your own personal experience of different markets, including, as you say, Japan. And so I wish you all the very best with that. And if people want to get in touch with you, we'll put your email address your website, in the show notes to this episode. And they can reach out to you and engage with you. If they'd like to just talk about, about that process or anything. Anything else that I've heard your story now they'll know that there's a few areas of the industry that you've had experience with. So

Clive Prevost: 1:16:55

Well it might amuse you on that note that a spouse approached me to become the executor of a very large estate. I know absolutely nothing about liquidating her husband's estate, or any other state for that matter. So I'm learning. It'll also take probably another six months or a year but fun and games,

Andy: 1:17:19

right, but lots of relevant skills and a trust trustworthy individual to do that. Is there anything I haven't asked you? Clive that means I might have missed a trick or missed out on an interesting story or idea from your biography.

Clive Prevost: 1:17:36

Quite honestly, I think we've covered a lot. Don't ask me to speak Japanese. I've lost that for a while I can try and talk Australian mate but

Andy: 1:17:46

Ah fluent. Bonza.

Clive Prevost: 1:17:50

There we go. But yeah, I think we should end on that note, because quite frankly, I I'm not sure that I can contribute much more

Andy: 1:18:01

I've definitely tipped you upside down and shaken you to your pockets empty of golden nuggets. So thank you very much indeed for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure to hear your career and life story today. Thanks very much Clive.

Clive Prevost: 1:18:17

Thanks, Andy. And it was, as you said, an absolute pleasure being able to catch up again, thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.

Andy: 1:18:28

You've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me, Andy Follows. I hope you found some helpful points to reflect on in Clive's story that can help you with your own career journey, or that of those who lead parent or mentor. You can contact Clive via email, and we'll put a link in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and click the Follow button in the app that you use to listen to your podcasts. This helps our podcast grow so that we can continue to share the wealth of experience that our guests have amassed during their career so far. Thanks for listening.