In this episode Clare shares some of the brain science behind our reaction to change and learning that informs her work in the field of neuroleadership. Clare also shares some of her personal career transitions which saw her move from the world of hospitality into IT and ultimately led to her starting her own people development business, BrainSmart.
I hope you find some helpful points to reflect on and more importantly act on in your own environment.
You can contact Clare via LinkedIn and here is a link to the BrainSmart website.
This episode of CAREER-VIEW MIRROR is brought to you by Aquilae.
For details of our forthcoming guests follow us on Instagram @careerviewmirror
Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk
Episode recorded on 19 January 2023
In this episode Clare shares some of the brain science behind our reaction to change and learning that informs her work in the field of neuroleadership. Clare also shares some of her personal career transitions which saw her move from the world of hospitality into IT and ultimately led to her starting her own people development business, BrainSmart.
I hope you find some helpful points to reflect on and more importantly act on in your own environment.
You can contact Clare via LinkedIn and here is a link to the BrainSmart website.
This episode of CAREER-VIEW MIRROR is brought to you by Aquilae.
For details of our forthcoming guests follow us on Instagram @careerviewmirror
Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk
Episode recorded on 19 January 2023
I am sitting in lovely Siesta Key Florida.
Sherene Redelinghuys:I'm coming from Bangkok in Thailand
Daniel von Treeck:Prague in the Czech Republic
Osman Abdelmoneim:Cairo in Egypt
Holger Drott:Auckland, New Zealand,
Shannon Faulkner:London, England.
Andy:Welcome to Career-view Mirror, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers so far, sharing insights to help you with your own journey. I'm your host, Andy Follows Hello, listeners, and welcome to this Side Mirror episode of Career-view Mirror. If you're a regular listener, thank you. You'll be aware that most of our episodes feature interviews with people in the automotive industry, who kindly share their life and career journeys with us. We celebrate their careers, listen to their stories and learn from their experiences. And from time to time, we also publish these side mirror episodes, which are usually an opportunity for me to share some content with you related to careers or developing ourselves or the people we lead, parent or mentor that I hope you'll find valuable. We recently introduced a new twist, I wanted to be able to introduce you to some of the very interesting people in my network who are not from the automotive industry. We had Mark Slater from the telecoms industry. And we had Alex Case who talked about continuous learning in the UK Royal Marines. For this episode, I'd like to introduce you to Clare Edwards, principal of Brain Smart People Development. Hello, Clare, and welcome. And where are you coming to us from today?
Clare Edwards:Hello, Andy. And good morning from hot humid and cloudy Sydney, Australia.
Andy:Oh my that sounds absolutely wonderful. And it's freezing. It's freezing here in the UK at the moment. So you're very, very welcome. Thank you for joining me. And if it's not putting you on the spot or revealing information that's too sensitive, would you mind sharing how we met? And perhaps how long ago we met?
Clare Edwards:Yes, how we met? Well, I'll start off with how long ago because it's coming up to 31 years. So that means we must have met in kindergarten.
Andy:Yeah, that must be it, must be it
Clare Edwards:We we met at the University of West London as it's now called when we were both studying a diploma in management studies. But it wasn't called the University of West London then
Andy:No, that institution had an incredible trajectory. I think in the time that we were there, it went from being Thames Valley College to Thames Valley University to the University of West London in the space of two years. It was it was a high achieving institution. And I do remember we had some fun times, that was very early in our careers, wasn't it? And we've stayed in touch ever since which is great. And I'm very pleased to be able to introduce you to our listeners today on this podcast. And I wanted to ask so you're the principal of Brain Smart People Development? Can you tell us a little bit about what Brain Smart does and what you're doing now?
Clare Edwards:Yeah, sure. So we're a boutique consultancy, a training, development, coaching, mentoring organisation, we work sort of across four pillars or four mantras of work smarter, lead better, build great teams and thrive in change. So they are the four key areas and underlying everything that we do, the foundations are the elements of neuroscience, so social, cognitive neuroscience, those elements of neuroscience, where it really helps for people to understand what's going on in their brain and how their brain works to be able to be more productive, lead better, build teams and and be more, you know, adaptable and flexible to change.
Andy:Sounds fascinating. And I imagine it really goes down well with those people who really want everything to be with a basis of fact behind what it is that you're telling them.
Clare Edwards:Absolutely. And that was the biggest difference that I noticed, Andy was when when we're able to give people something that's evidence based when we're able to share the source of the study the nature of the experiment, the results that when we're dealing with people who are very naturally rational, logical and analytical. That's when you start to see the light bulbs of insight go on, and people taking more responsibility for their learning.
Andy:Yeah, that I can imagine. Very good. So we're going to talk about some of your experiences and some of the some of the thinking behind what you do in the, in the course of this conversation. My listeners are used to the long form autobiographical content that forms most of our episodes. You've got a very interesting backstory yourself. And I listened to it recently because you have your own podcast, which I just want to give a shout out for. And it's Rauthentic Leadership, isn't it Clare?
Clare Edwards:That's correct. Yeah.
Andy:So if people are hungry for your, your autobiography, if you like after this, they can go and track down Rauthentic Leadership and listen to how you came to be doing what you're doing now. Now, like Alex Case, who joined me for episode 97, you listened to episode 91, which is What Happens in Vegas. And that was the one where I was sharing how it seemed that the corporate classroom has unfortunately, some similarity to Vegas in that what happens in there tends to stay in there sometimes when really what what we want is for people to be taking the new concepts that they've learned, and practising them in their working environment. What was it that resonated with you about that episode?
Clare Edwards:I was I was shouting as I was listening. It's a good job I wasn't doing it in a public place. But as I was listening, I was shouting, because it's a sort of complex onion to peel back with multiple layers. I think there are so many different dynamics at play. But the essence that the nub of the onion is, yes, we've got organisations who are investing significant amounts of, of money, time and energy, putting on these great development programmes for their people. But there's often that lack of continuity of the deep thinking about okay, so how is this then going to translate back into the organisation? How are we going to keep this thread going? How are we going to manage people's progress and development? How are we going to get our return on investment for the money that we have invested in this? And as I say, I don't think there's a simple answer to it. But there is such a need, because otherwise, organisations are leaving so much money on the table from training their people. And and there's also as you and I are aware, Andy, that there's also the onus on the individual to take accountability for their learning. And if I can loop that back to when we went to college and studied that diploma in management studies, I think that was drilled into us in that, you know, certainly from the organisation that I was working for, that we're going to invest in you with this programme. How are you going to give back, you know, what is it that you're going to do? How are you going to implement what you've learned? And we took that responsibility and that accountability for our own learning. And I'm wondering if there's a little bit of that missing today, as I say, it's a bit of a conundrum to unpeel.
Andy:Yeah, let's I'm hesitating to make generalisations about what might may or may not be happening now. I'm interested to explore with you some of the things that you said you haven't got the you haven't found the answer, if you like the single answer, but what are some of the things that you think help to get the learning out of the corporate classroom and happening in the workplace? Let's tackle that as a first part.
Clare Edwards:Great. So I think that it's a shift in the dynamics of understanding the relationship between the people in an organisation who are responsible for sourcing learning providers externally, the people who are actually going to be doing the learning and the learning provider to come together with a sort of a human centred design approach as to how can we co create something so it's not me just putting a proposal together? You know, this is what I've been listening to, here's my ideas for your programme. And then there's that batting to and forwards. It's a true co creation process. And we're not just talking about the time, that sort of chunk of time where people are learning either with me or whoever. It's about what's happening in the lead up to it, really, really going deep and understanding the challenges, the pains, the cost of those pains, but also then, co creating that ongoing development programme. Now, whether that involves me or not, is not important. What is important is that there is that continuum of learning. So I think it's about really reframing the whole relationship. And that's up to us to be able to articulate that with our clients with those organisations. And for them to see the benefit in a partnership rather than a supplier or, or a provider.
Andy:I see. So it's, it's about not just, what are we going to do for the people but it's very much agreeing the manner in which we're going to go about this, we want to do it with you, alongside you, it needs to be created together with a clear understanding of your situation. So it's highly relevant to your situation. And then you use the word ongoing Clare, how important and this is, I've almost feel foolish asking you this question. Because I'm either leading the witness or I'm I just find it a very, I've got a very strong opinion on it, I guess. But how important do you think it is that whatever intervention is, it's an ongoing one.
Clare Edwards:It's critical, Andy, because we if we think about how the brain learns, when we learn something new, and I'm showing my age here, for those of you who remember Evil Knievel, or his son, Robbie Knievel, you know, the Daredevil, so his son, Robbie, who's recently past jumped the Grand Canyon, on a motorbike. And when our brains are learning, when we're first learning something, those neural pathways that are taking in the information, it's like jumping a massive chasm, it's really, really energy hungry and challenging for the brain to learn. So if you think about new people, you know, onboarding, and induction, and we throw all this information at them, and by the end of the week, they're like, they can't even speak, they're so tired. And we've also got sort of, you know, good old Ebbinghaus, from 1895. And his forgetting curve, there's only so much information that we can take in. And it's the way that we take it in as well, are we are we providing a learning environment that is conducive to how the brain learns, are we doing brain friendly training. So there's a number of areas there, but it's completely and utterly normal for someone to forget 80, 90 95% of what they've learned, unless it's tied to emotion. So you know, if we're using storytelling, if we're really getting people emotionally engaged, because that then engages a part of the brain, it's like, like a post it note, a sticky note for memory, that if we're just delivering information, if we're just delivering statistics, if we're just delivering policy and procedure what have you, people aren't going to remember it. So repetition is another it's how we learned as kids, isn't it through repetition. Remember, your times table. Repetition is really, really important. But with slightly different twists to the repetition rather than it just being same, same same. So we can't expect anybody who has a brain to to go into a learning environment to learn something, and to remember how to apply it back in the workplace without that repetition, whether that be through coaching, whether it be through micro learning, whether it be through adding little things on like videos, film clips, story elements, metaphors, anything that can re engage the brain, which strengthens those neural pathways. And you know, there's the old saying, from Hebbs Law, what fires together wires together, we have to keep firing those neural pathways along the same lines of what people have been learning in order for them in order for them to retain it and use it.
Andy:Wow. If we think back it makes sense. If we think back to events in our past that we remember, it's usually the ones where there was a significant amount of emotion attached to them, was either the highs and the lows are the ones that that stand out. Yeah. And then you've reminded me of a concept called cue dependent memory, that thing where you go somewhere, maybe that you've been before or you have a smell, or a song. And as soon as you hear it, suddenly, it evokes a memory because it's, it's connected to that piece of music or that smell or that location. So it's I understand what you're saying there. So it's really important to create very thoughtfully and intentionally the programmes that you put together for maximum stickiness, for the content to have maximum stickiness with the individual. And then what about actually getting people to practice, though, because what I've noticed is people will will nod and they will conceptually understand what you're saying. And they might even be able to remember it. If you make it fun enough with a very good story, they'll remember. There's still a difference, though, between understanding and taking it out of the classroom and having a go with it. How do you tackle that?
Clare Edwards:That's a really, really good question and a good point. And the first thing that's coming to mind is when you're in a learning environment, and you mentioned the word role play, and
Andy:and it strikes fear into the hearts of everybody. Yeah.
Clare Edwards:But there, there are ways you can subtly introduced roleplay. Because roleplay is very helpful and for me I often I'll put case studies and scenarios together. So I will work with a client to say, Okay, I want to introduce a case study, or I want to introduce a scenario, what's something that you've, you know, let's make it as realistic as possible rather than hypothetical. And people will start talking in the third person about, you know, Fred, who didn't understand this concept, was scared to go to his boss, didn't feel like there was psychological safety, blah, blah, blah, whatever, I'm just making something up. And then what you'll find is, as you lead people through that case, study it, and they're feeling safe to talk about it, they'll start talking in the first person, they'll start sharing their own experiences. And then we say, okay, great. Well, you've just, you've just shown us brilliantly how you would manage the situation with Fred and psychological safety. What about you? and it makes people feel safe to talk about their own experiences, and in a way, that's a form of roleplay. But if we think about, I wonder if your listeners are familiar with the 70 20 10 concept of learning, so that, you know, 70% of our learning is best done on the job, 20% we learn from other people and 10% from formal courses. And you've just reminded me, something that I used to do, so the first 10 years of my career was actually in hospitality, I was worked my way up from a receptionist to a front of house manager with a European hotel chain. And we did this intuitively. So at three o'clock in the afternoon, when we had a shift handover from early shift to late shift, or if we handed from late to night or night to early shift, we'd talk about challenges that we had, challenging experiences. So maybe we had to we were over booked, and we had to book a client out and the client, the guest, got very angry with us, or we'd have a planeload of Americans arrive at six o'clock in the morning wanting their rooms, you know that weren't ready. And we'd talk about so okay, so what how do you deal with that client? And they'd sort of roleplay how they dealt with that client, with that guest and we'd talk about well, what could we do differently and I think to be able to resurrect that on the job learning, that talking about whatever the challenges are that are involved in the programme, whether it be a leadership challenge, a difficult conversation, let's bring the unconscious conscious let's let's resurface things so that we're doing this on a daily basis, it's not just going to a formal course and coming back and applying it. So I've gone a bit of a roundabout way but I'm hoping that addresses your question to some degree.
Andy:Yeah, there's a lot of really good stuff in there Clare, and in the side mirrors I might permit myself a little bit more airtime than I do in my career interviews and join in if you like a little bit because what you've touched on, a number of things there. The 70 20 10 really does if we if everybody was thinking about that and managers knew, leaders knew okay so 70% of the of the learning has to come on the job so I need to structure things so that happens. And I love the it makes such sense that the you in the hotel, for example, you were practising scenarios to be able to deal with them because one of the things I think we totally underestimate is how much help people need to go from conceptually grasping something to to actually being able to do it and we really need to help them sometimes they don't know what words use, How should I open this conversation with the with my team member? What words should I use? And we need to go into that granular level to get them started. It's like sort of priming the pump or Yeah, that's you made me think of and then also the system if you like, there needs to be you can't just in isolation, develop some people in the organisation without having some structure to it and thinking, okay, so does the manager know what this individual's learning this month and what they're going to be expected to do with it? And how can the manager get involved and work with the individual to say, Okay, so in your 10% of formal training that you've had, what were you doing and how are we going to empower, how are we going to help you do the 70% now that you're back in the in the team environment, so
Clare Edwards:I think that's critical that a leader or a manager is also a coach. And it's, it's training leaders up to be good coaches to ask the right questions. Because again, going back to how our brain learns, just telling people something, particularly if you're in a training course, and you just start talking and telling people things, if it's something that they already know, the brain just switches off and says, Yeah, been there, done that, got that not interested. So we have to layer learning. So first, we have to elicit what people already know, acknowledge that and add stuff on top. So again, learning back in the workplace, or learning post formal course, if the leader, the manager, can ask the right questions to facilitate insight on the part of the learner. So you know, it's like when you know you're a leader, you know the answer, but you're going to still question your person, because when you see them get it, and they go, Oh, okay, right. I didn't, gosh, I didn't, I didn't empathise with that client, or it didn't. And they realise it. So they get a little burst of gamma. It's like a brain wave. It goes boom in their brain. And it's sticky. And they remember. But if you were to say, right, you know, I overheard that conversation with the client. And, you know, you could have been a bit more empathic, they're not going to remember anything like that.
Andy:They're not involved in that.
Clare Edwards:No, not at all.
Andy:Yeah, that's just something you said, I heard, but I wasn't involved. Yeah, so I'm not going to retain it, it's not gonna have an impact on me. So there's this idea that I care about so much about managers, as you say, being the coach, really getting involved. Ed Eppley who's been a guest on the podcast, who's a mentor of mine, in 2006, he introduced me to a paradigm about what my role was as a leader, he said, Andy, your role is to deliver results, and grow the people. And I knew it was to deliver results. I'd been in a sales organisation for many years which had a very strong focus on targets. I'd never had grow the people put side by side with deliver results as an equal, an equal responsibility of mine. And I'd love to see managers being very aware that they've got people currently in corporate training, in formal training and asking them, okay, you're about, as you said, you know, your organisation 30 years ago, wanted to know, what are you going to get out of this? And what are we going to get out of it? So if it's something that's going on in the organisation, managers asking their attendees, the team members who are attending, so before you go in, what are you hoping to get out of this? And may I add, perhaps a couple of things I'd like you to think about while you're in there and explore. And then when they come out, asking them, how did it go? What did you learn? What are you going to practice? How can we set that up?
Clare Edwards:getting this continual learning. Something that I'm experiencing is, without wanting to generalise, but with a lot of people that I've been dealing with, they might be head of people and culture, head of HR, head of learning and development. They are so so busy that in an ideal world, they would want to co create everything with me. When I first meet with them, and I say, look, I really want to dig down into two areas. I want to know the objectives. I want to know the drivers, why are you putting this training on? Let's co create some really clear outcomes. What is it that you want people to be seeing, doing, feeling hearing, progressing on 3, 6, 9, 12 months later? They are so busy that that in a way sometimes I'm creating my own downfall that it's too complex. It's like I haven't got time for this. And it's not It's not an attitudinal thing. It's not like I just want to tick the box to say I've done, I've put on a leadership programme for somebody, it's just that they're so they're so pushed for time and resources that yes, in an ideal world, that's how they'd like to work. But reality says, I've got to get this programme delivered, you know, for my client, as in their internal client, I've got to find the best provider possible. And then it's up to the leader in that organisation to measure the success of it. So again, I think there's some systemic stuff, that if we can really get below that waterline of the iceberg and start to, for example, with learning and development and HR having a seat on the board or having a having a greater voice in the executive leadership team, then we might get better
Andy:Yeah, sometimes feels like the L&D department is operating traction. a little bit in isolation. Yeah, the organisation, they've got some expectations on them to deliver some contents and programmes to a group of people, and they're left to do it. And the responsibility is put on them and the leaders are maybe not doing enough, not recognising how much they need to do to keep this going and really embed it in the day to day operational time and place.
Clare Edwards:Yeah, remember, also, there's, there's so much compliance training in organisations as well. So they've got to deal with what's mandatory. And now if you know we're talking about we're now in early 2023, we've had two and a half, three years of organisations just having to survive and get through this crazy pandemic world. And so things like the soft skills training or leadership development or resilience, all that sort of stuff has taken a backseat. So they're also stuck with how do i prioritise all of this? It's a tough place to be in learning and development at the moment. For many organisations,
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Clare Edwards:Yeah. And actually, I did, I rebranded my business to include the brain in there. So this goes back to 2012 2013, where I came across a company called Neuro Capability that were based in Brisbane and they were running diplomas in the neuroscience of leadership. And the whole concept around the neuroscience of leadership was started by an Australian, who went to Middlesex poly and studied the neuroscience of leadership. So basically, in a nutshell, with the advances of brain imaging technology, we're now able to see so much in the brain, how people make decisions, where insight happens, social pain, all sorts of stuff. So this guy called David Rock, got a bunch of social cognitive neuroscientists together, and a bunch of business leaders together and said, Okay, scientists tell us what we need to know about the brain to be more effective leaders or to be able to thrive in change. And I was really curious about that. And I saw that this diploma became available. And as I started studying, it's funny, it took me right back to being in school in fifth form, studying the brain in biology. And I remember just how fascinated I was with the brain. And so I started studying, it was February 2013 it was I started my diploma. And as soon as I learned something, I then embed it into one of my programmes. And I started to see, as I mentioned earlier on, I started to see people became more curious. And they'd ask me more, and they'd, you could see these little light bulbs of understanding going on and saying, Ah, so that's why I react the way that I do. So that's why I do what I do. So that's why I hate change. And so that then just became, it was a huge insight for me that that people want to know why they do what they do. Yeah, not not just what they do, not just how they do it. But we were missing the why. And the neuroscience was giving people the why. And you think about it, you know, we come up with these amazing models and hypotheses, and we ask people to accept them and take them on board and run with them. But when there's something that's evidence based, and we've got really thorough studies or experiments to back that up, then people are less dismissive, or they're certainly the people that I've been working with. And curiosity. Again, Curiosity is the state of mind that is like that sticky note for memory, if we can get people into a state of curiosity, when if you're in whether it's virtual or classroom based, when you see people leaning in, when you see people popping their head to the side, or what have you, and asking more questions and wanting to learn, that's when you're going to get traction. And so my business at the time was called Change Works, Change Works and People Development, I rebranded to Brain Smart. And I yeah, I'm gonna be courageously vulnerable here, I just assumed that everybody was as enthusiastic as me about the brain. And it was just me though. And then it was crickets. Oh, hang on a minute here, okay. Right. There's a bit of a bit of communicating and educating and understanding that needs to happen. And so it's been a really interesting ride, Andy, there are some, some organisations and often in the public sector, government organisations where they sort of leapfrog from very traditional classroom based training, you know, oh, here's a one day time management course, to doing something with me around managing energy and under Arabian rhythms and all sorts of crazy stuff like that. Or there might be early adopters quite often in IT software, what have you. Early Adopter organisations like yeah, I want stuff with the brain. But not everybody was banging down on the door to to do programmes that involved neuroscience
Andy:Right, right. And yet, as you say, you thought it was That's it, you'd found it, you're gonna flick the switch, and everyone would love it because it was rational. And it was, it was explaining why we do the things that we did.
Clare Edwards:And it was different. And as human beings, you know, we're asking people, well, certainly in my case, I'm asking my prospective clients to take a bit of a risk with doing something that's slightly different. And that can be challenging. Again, going back to if they're really busy, or it's a safety thing as well. It may be well, my incumbent providers delivering good results. Do I really want to take a risk on someone who is saying that we'll get these phenomenal outcomes and it's all about Yeah, we've got to putting ourselves in our clients shoes, it starts with empathy. human centred design starts with empathy. We have to go and be with them and understand their pains and their challenges.
Andy:The bit that stands out for me is you in fifth form, doing the brain and being super passionate and excited about it, and then ending up in hospitality. So yeah, you know, it's a bit of a change. And I know because I've listened to the episode so if my listeners want to know quite what happened, and it's a very authentic story, they can go and listen to that. But then you've gone again, from hospitality to what you're doing now. So how, how have you changed? How did that change come about?
Clare Edwards:Okay, so, in in a nutshell, yes, I was so passionate about biology and I actually went round a path lab, but then I realised I had to do chemistry and physics as well. So that wasn't an option.
Andy:That's enough to put anybody off.
Clare Edwards:I slid into hospitality because my brother was a hotel manager and my sister was a hotel receptionist. And at the time at my convent school, career coaching and development wasn't really existent. But my leapfrog, so I was 10 years in the hospitality, my leapfrog from hospitality into IT came from spending time in Holland and being doggedly determined to learn Dutch, which isn't easiest of languages,
Andy:right? So you got into IT before you got into what you're doing now, your first leapfrog was into the world of IT, which again, is quite different from hospitality. So what was the driver? What was the driver for that?
Clare Edwards:Yes. So I was working in a hotel in Maidenhead in the UK, doing crazy, crazy hours. I worked August until Christmas, without a day off. And for very little money. And so I sat down one day, and I thought this isn't this is not sustainable. I want a job that can use my talents. You know, what, what brings me joy? What am I gifts and talents? And I thought, gosh, you know, I'm fluent in Dutch, so I thought, right, want a job where I can speak Dutch. So at the time recruitment, you know, recruitment companies were in the High Street, weren't they? So I went and visited all these recruitment companies in Maidenhead High Street and said, I want a job where I can speak Dutch. And they said, Are you serious? And I said, Yes. And it's important. We don't have a long list of opportunities. And, and so I was about to, I was actually about to give up. I was about to give notice on my little flat that I was renting. And I was about to go back to Liverpool. And I opened the Maidenhead advertiser, and there was a big quarter page advert, and it was McGraw Hill. And it was a subsidiary of McGraw Hill. And this advert said, do you speak Dutch? And I'm like, that is my job. And it was in sales, it was selling strategic IT Information Services, to the Netherlands and Eastern Europe. And I was just so determined that it was I mean, there probably weren't a lot of people going for the job. But I when I had that interview, it's funny when desire is so strong, it didn't even enter my head, that I wouldn't be given the job and I remember Lawrence, the guy interviewing me and saying, Well, you know, what's your experience of sales, and I was having to think on my feet. And I said, I ran, I ran our hotel on 110% occupancy, he said, Well, you can't get 110% occupancy, I said yes you can because a lot of people use hotel rooms during the day for something else and they don't need to stay the night
Andy:Clare this is a family show. Meetings. I know what you mean, sometimes you need a meeting. Yeah,
Clare Edwards:sometimes you need a meeting. Exactly. They're called day let's. And so it was my enthusiasm and my passion and wanting to use my talents that got me into this role. I just didn't know one end of a computer from the other. But I was just so determined to learn and this comes back to taking responsibility for your own learning. I stalked the people in the company who had knowledge and then I'd tell how does this work? Tell me how do you know this was even before the internet, it was like well, you know, how does that big computer work with that? And then why would somebody choose a little computer over a big computer what have you, so I was curious. I was insanely curious.
Andy:Right. I can imagine when you because of the process you'd been on and deciding no I want to use I want to play to my strengths which I absolutely love, I want to use the talent I've got. I can speak Dutch, I'll find a job in Maidenhead that needs me to speak Dutch. That was that was optimistic but then opening the paper and seeing an ad staring at you that says, Do you speak Dutch? You'd feel that it was a sign, wouldn't you? I think you could be forgiven for thinking, yeah, they've sent me a sign. This is my job. It's got my name written all over it. And, and then that hunger that you had that curiosity. So many of my guests in the Career-view Mirror episodes, just have that curiosity. And they want they look, you know, they get in earlier, and they go into different departments, and they ask people what they're doing. And sometimes they say, what's the, your least favourite part of your job? And would you like me to do it for you, and really out of, you know, beyond the call of duty sort of behaviour that then helps to build their skill set and their breadth. So you did that. And transferable skill of being salesperson in a hotel, obviously, it transfers it's a transferable skill, you the way you think about things, adapt it to the IT world,
Clare Edwards:it's relationship building, Andy, that's what it was all about was, was was building relationships, building, building trust, ethically influencing.
Andy:Yeah. The other thing you said that I wanted to go back to was this idea that when you started to learn the neuroscience piece, every new bit of learning, you were finding ways to implement it in the programmes that you are writing. So there was no hesitation, this wasn't, I'm going to learn this, I'm going to know it. And I'm going to keep it to myself, it's going to just be something I feel proud that I know, you were finding ways to implement it. Do you think that's like because of some tendency that you have as a, or something that you've just got, like a particular strength that you have that you you practice? Or was it because it was something you were so interested in? I'm really curious, what, what's the difference between people who read something, and next week, they're sharing it with other people, and they're trying to teach it versus people who read something, know it, and choose not to do something with it?
Clare Edwards:I think, for me, it's because I want the best outcomes for my clients. And if I believe that sharing a piece of knowledge, can help them to understand themselves and other people better, which is, which is the essence of, you know, soft skills, or what I call essential skills training. It's about emotional intelligence, about self awareness, and others awareness. And everything that I was learning around facilitating change, decision making, problem solving, was around increasing people's self awareness, then that for me, it felt like a duty, it's my duty, if I'm in possession of something that I know can help somebody to be a better leader, a better manager, a better coach, a better partner, parent, sibling, whatever role they play in life, then I would see that as being selfish to retain. I'm not judging anybody else. But for me, that's whatever I can do to help make a difference,
Andy:that paradigm that you have that sense of responsibility, the fact that it's aligned with your purpose, to help people and to help them learn and grow. It's it's fuel, I suppose, or it's the raw materials, isn't it? It's you're stumbling across, you're mining for these precious treasures, and you're finding them. And they're what you're then sharing with anyone, anyone who will basically listen and potentially benefit from it. So it's a very natural, intrinsically motivated activity. Yes. And I think for some people, maybe we need to help that penny to drop that hang on, could you go and teach this to somebody in your team? Would they benefit from what you've just learned? And you don't need to be given permission, you can go and do it.
Clare Edwards:But you've just hit the nail on the head. How do we create the environment for people to intrinsically be motivated to learn to develop to grow? Because dangling the carrot doesn't work. Waving the stick doesn't work. It's all intrinsic.
Andy:And have you got some thoughts on how we do that?
Clare Edwards:I think it's about finding what lights people up and also understanding what their core needs are. There's a model that I use that helps people understand at a point in time, a set of core needs that they have and a hierarchy of those needs. Because when we're let's take the example of leading a team, you know, whoever says there's no I in team to me, it's crazy. A team is made up of individuals and each of these individuals has a set of core needs and desires and wants. And when we tap into those individual core needs, desires and wants and we can create the environment for those individuals to to latch on to what lights them up.
Andy:Yeah, I agree. I agree. And this week's podcast that we've published is, it's called Flow, Purpose and Growing People, and it's aligned with what you're saying, I think it's this very individual approach, understand what it is lights you up, what gets you into a state of flow, what particular activities do you lose track of time, and you can't wait to have another go at it as soon as you're refreshed to do so. Because chances are, you're going to find in that your purpose and you're going to want to learn more about it, you're going to want to get better at it. And because you spend hours doing it, you are going to get better at it. And you can't help but be engaged when you're in that state. So maybe that is part of the secret is we don't have to do do something to them. We have to create an environment where they are finding themselves playing to their strengths and experiencing that and intrinsically being motivated to get better and share what they're doing.
Clare Edwards:And that that reminds me of the the you know that that Gallup q 12. Are you familiar with that? The 12 questions, and
Andy:I couldn't list the questions, but I am familiar with it.
Clare Edwards:So these are the 12 questions that you know, over 25 years, Gallup interviewed 80,000 managers and I think 250,000 employees that if they can answer, I strongly agree to these 12 questions, then you've got a high performing organisation. And one of those questions is, at some point during the day, I get to do what I do best. Yeah. And we realise that you, you know, in reality, if your job's made up of 10 elements, you're probably not going to be you know, doing cartwheels over all 10 elements, there are going to be boring things or things that you don't like to do, but at some point in time, each day or throughout the week, or whenever, you get to do those things that make you jump out of bed in the morning, then it's it's enriching that person's role and leading to their purpose.
Andy:Yeah. And I think that's where we need to also help people to identify what those things are, because some people wouldn't necessarily be able to give you the answer to that without you causing them to pause, and reflect and asking them to think about well what have you done in the last couple of weeks? When have you what have been the most enjoyable bits of your job, and then they can make a list and start trying to build a strong week around that. I know, one of the things in the q, one of the questions in the q 12, I believe is something around Do you have a best friend at work? And how important that is to people. And I remember working with one organisation where they wanted to do a version of the q 12. But they said, oh, we'll just take that one out. And I was thinking I'm not sure it works like that, that you can just say, yeah, that that one's not for us. But you mentioned emotional intelligence, EQ. And yeah, and I also love the way you have relabeled or rebranded soft skills as essential skill. Yes. And so let's talk about EQ and the importance of that, and how, how we can develop that and benefit from that.
Clare Edwards:Yeah, I think I think we're, we're in a really, really exciting phase of, particularly leadership development, I think, with the new generations that are coming on board, who, and I know, I'm generalising here, but you know, sort of in general, who are curious and want their ideas to be heard. And I've got a lot to teach other generations that that leaders are now understanding the importance of emotional intelligence, the importance of understanding the whole of the person, the self awareness how their behaviour is impacting on other people. And, in fact, this gets me thinking, if I can share a story from my early management career, and my gross, my gross lack of self awareness. So I was reception manager at the Crest hotel in Maidenhead. And I had, I had an amazing team, quite a large team, all female. And I thought I was a pretty good manager, I was very enthusiastic and conscientious and what have you. Anyway, one day, I was I was typing something out. It was it was a memo and it was just it was something really silly about something that the team wasn't doing. And my boss asked me and I said, Oh, well, you know, they just keep forgetting to do that. So I'm just going to send a little memo, and this beautiful young girl Felicity, she was 16 17 Welsh intern, she popped her head around the corner and she said, Clare, it doesn't matter what we do, it'll never be good enough for you. And that was like, it was like a massive medicine ball. It just hit me in the gut. And I went home and cried and cried and thought, my God, what am I going to do about this? And I came back into work. And I thought, we've got to talk about the elephant in the room. So I got a meeting together. And I shared the story. And I said, Look, you have my permission, tell me what's, what's working for you, what's not working for you? And they gave it to me. They said, We have a competition every month to see how many memos you gonna send out. And I said, so. But my intention was to make sure they're informed. Well, it doesn't matter what your intention is, it's the impact of your behaviour that gets measured. And so and then they said that I was a micromanager and I really took umbrage at that. And so I said, and I was stayed calm. And I said, Okay, can you help me understand? And they said, Well, have you noticed how you always happen to be present at handover? That you always happen to have something to say that you're always like, checking the bar takings checking the restaurant takings, checking the banking, checking, and I was totally, totally unaware of this. And it was it was an epiphany, I tell you, to have the courage to ask what's working, what's not working for you that early on, I was 25, 26, was such a blessing. It really was. As I said it hurt like hell at the time. But to then say, Gosh, how do you want to be managed? How do you want to be led. And for some people, the real close, you know, situational leadership, for some people, that close supervision was great. For others. It's like, get the hell away from me here and leave me alone. And give me the autonomy to do my job. And I think that's what's really coming to the fore in leadership today, is that adaptive leadership, that situational leadership, and I think I think it really is an exciting time where people are going to be where the whole person comes to work, they feel psychologically safe, they have a voice, and they're part of the growth of the organisation truly a part of the growth.
Andy:That sounds wonderful. And Felicity, I mean, wow,
Clare Edwards:yeah, I wish I could find her, we haven't been able to find her
Andy:for her to call you out. And what that triggered. So self awareness, this idea of knowing how I'm going to react to a certain stimulus, so knowing myself well enough that I know that if this happens, this is how I'm likely to react. And also knowing what's the impact that I have on other people? What's the impact that my behaviours have on others? And that idea of asking, there was a question, there's a way it was phrased at some point. I picked it up a few years ago, saying, if I want to get the best out of you, what do I need to stop, start and keep doing as your manager. And I find that very helpful, so it's not soft, it's going to move the needle, it's going to make you a more successful business, it's going to make you a higher performing team if you lean into learning these skills, isn't it.
Clare Edwards:Absolutely. I was very lucky when I so when I, when I left the hotel industry and moved into this IT research company, I was part of a pilot group for setting up a new performance management system. And it was with a company in the States, DDI. And so much of the elements of the performance management were attitudinal and behavioural traits. And I assumed, so this was in the late 80s. So I assumed that all performance management systems included attitudinal and behavioural key performance indicators and markers. And I woke up to the fact that a lot of them don't, a lot of people you know, managed and measured as a round performance and achievement of targets and what have you. And again, I think it's an exciting time now, where learning and performance is now really, really including attitudes. And so you can be measured on your ability to collaborate with someone or your ability to empathise, go the extra mile, listen your your listening skills. And I just think it's it's an important area to cover in learning that it's, it's about how do we develop the whole person.
Andy:So it's not just what we do, or what's quantifiable, it's the manner in which we go about doing our role.
Clare Edwards:Yeah. I suppose if I can use an example, that something, I'm running a workshop on Monday, and we're gonna be talking about accountability. And there was I used to work for a telecoms company was actually an Internet service provider. And, and our chief technical officer, was what we'd call today, a brilliant jerk. He had a brain the size of a planet, and he had, and I'm not being nasty, but he had social skills of a gnat, he was arrogant, he was rude. He was opinionated, self serving. And none of us ever spoke about that elephant in the room. I was a member of the executive leadership team, I was scared of him. I didn't feel I had a voice, I felt I was far less intelligent than him. And none of us included skills like the ability to connect with other people, the ability to collaborate, to be altruistic, you know, put down your tools and help whenever needed or what have you. And I think if we'd had a system in place that addressed that, so for example, there's a company an Australian company called Atlassian. Hugely successful,
Andy:I've heard about them, yeah.
Clare Edwards:And they're saying, We do not tolerate brilliant jerks. We don't care what difference you're making to the company. If you can't be one of us in the tribe, and give as a member of the tribe, then we don't want you. So that's where I'm trying to come in with that somebody can be a brilliant performer. But what is the impact that they might be having on the rest of the team or the organisation? If you want a culture of psychological safety, for example, but you have a brilliant jerk who you're scared of, then there's a massive mismatch there
Andy:Yeah, absolutely. You only need one person like that in the team or in the room and that sets the bar for how vulnerable people are going to be. Yeah, I agree with you, definitely seems to be getting more rounded, more holistic, the way we we measure and what we appreciate now, and thank you for your vulnerability in saying you were, you know, even though you were on the executive leadership team, you were scared of an individual, and that affected your behaviour at the time. I wanted to ask you, on Monday you're going to be talking about creating high performing teams, aren't you?
Clare Edwards:Yes, yeah.
Andy:And are you ok to share some of the components or factors? Are you happy to do that?
Clare Edwards:Yes, sure. Yes. So I'm going to be introducing two models, I've got 143 heads of department of a prestigious grammar school, actually. And the the model that I'm using, it's sort of it's my model that I've adapted from other models. So it's, it's a pyramid, high performing teams model, and I call it the ABCs of high performing teams. So it's attitudes, behaviours and characteristics, not necessarily capabilities. And I've taken it from the work of Katzenbach and Smith, you know, the original pioneers of the discipline of teams and the wisdom of teams, I've taken it from Margerison and McCann, who created the team management profile, and I've taken it from Patrick Lencioni, who did The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and then flipped it to the five behaviours of a cohesive team. So it's, it's an adapted model, and it starts at the top with Team identity. So you know, what is the identity of this team? Do I feel an allegiance to this team? Do I feel a loyalty to this team? Do we have a clear purpose, common purpose and other attributes? And then we go down into collaboration? So you know, do we do we willingly share information, knowledge, practices? Do we collaborate with people outside of our teams? So internal collaboration, external collaboration, and then we go down into accountability? So do we have a sense of of mutual and self accountability? Am I accountable for my own learning and development and growth? Do we call on irresponsible behaviours? Do we call them out? Do we have positive peer pressure? And then the next one down is trust, do we have each other's backs. Do we are we reliable, consistent? Do we say what we're going, you know, what we say we're going to do, we're going to do without having to be reminded. And then the foundation layer from that is another is another model. And it's about do we understand what what drives our behaviour. And that's the model that I have called social, which is six domains of experience or six core needs that each and every one of us has to differing degrees. So S is safety, whether that be physical safety or psychological safety. So you know, I have a voice, I can bring my whole self to work. O is objectivity Am I treated fairly and equitably? Do I have a perception? Is there a perception of fairness in this team? Is there openness and transparency? C is certainty our brains crave certainty. So you know, do we as a team and does our team leader communicate with us consistently on time accurately? Do we know what's expected of us in our roles? And our responsibilities? I is importance, our sense of status, you know, am I so am I considered Am I Am I recognised and rewarded for my contribution? Am I a valid team member? The A is autonomy. That's what I learned way back in 1987 from Felicity, do we delegate do we empower do we give people the tools to be able to work in an autonomous way, you know, nobody, nobody has ever put their hand up and said that they loved being micromanaged. And the L is love. And that is in the form of connection. You know, as a team, do we consider ourselves a tribe. I've worked in so many teams where we socialised after work, where we're still connected. I went back to the UK last year. And you know, I had a 40 year reunion, a 35 reunion and a 30 year reunion with people I've worked with, with teams I've, I've built and managed so that and again, 21st century leadership is taking into account that love and connection are critical elements of building a high performing team. One of my absolute heroes is Jurgen Klopp. He's the manager of Liverpool, Liverpool Football Club. He loves his team, and he's not afraid to show it and he's German.
Andy:Yeah, love it. Love it. Very good. So I wish you all the best on Monday back out there in face to face delivering and doing what you do best doing what you love, living your purpose, sharing that learning. So thank you. Thank you very much, Clare, for joining me today to have this conversation and to add somebody else's perspective on the topics that I'm passionate about. Thank you very much.
Clare Edwards:It's been my pleasure, Andy, thank you, go well.
Andy:You've been listening to Career-view Mirror with me, Andy Follows. In this episode, Clare shared some of the brain science behind our reaction to change and learning that informs her work in the field of neuro leadership. Clare's also shared some of her personal career transitions which saw her move from the world of hospitality into IT, and ultimately led to her starting her own people development business Brain Smart. I hope you found some helpful points to reflect on and more importantly, act on in your own environment. You can find Clare on LinkedIn, and we'll put a link in the show notes to this episode, along with a link to the Brain Smart website. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and click the Follow button in the app that you use to listen to your podcasts. This helps our podcast grow so that we can continue to share the wealth of experience that our guests have amassed during their career so far, thanks for listening.
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