Rachel Wolff: the lawyer and health and well being founder of Movebite, bringing personalised bite sized movement into our working day.

In this episode we are celebrating the career to date of Rachel Wolff.

Rachel is the co-founder of Movebite, an early-stage startup on a mission to bring movement into the workday, personalized for the needs of each employee. Movebite helps companies reduce absenteeism with a workday AI health coach for every employee.

Before Movebite, Rachel was a legal counsel for over a decade at Baker & McKenzie, Uber, and Navan (formerly TripActions). Five years ago, she pivoted to workplace wellbeing and helps corporations and employees with their health and wellbeing challenges. Additionally, Rachel is a certified personal trainer, digital wellbeing and CrossFit coach.

In our conversation we talk about how she decided she wanted to be a lawyer when she was still a child and this meant she was able to make some helpful decisions at school and university. Rachel describes how she learned about her own preferences from experiencing different roles within the law firm. She shares the positive impact that it had on her when she witnessed a senior lawyer comfortably asking questions and openly explaining that they knew little about a specific topic and she reveals how her passion for health and well being kept tugging at her attention throughout her career until she finally made the switch.

I thoroughly enjoyed learning more about Rachel's journey and I'm delighted to be able to share it with you.

If you're listening for the first time, hello, I'm Andy Follows. I'm a trusted advisor to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to enable Fulfilling Performance. If you'd like to know more about Fulfilling Performance, check out: Release the handbrake! - The Fulfilling Performance Hub on Substack.

Connect with Rachel
LinkedIn: Rachel Wolff

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Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk

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Episode recorded on 1 May, 2024.

Transcript

Rachel Wolff: 0:00

For any of your listeners, like if you are a manager or you're inspired to become a manager at some point and creating an environment for people where they can feel safe and they feel at home and they want to share with you, I think you you will be up for success in my opinion.

Aquilae: 0:18

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host, Andy follows

Andy Follows: 0:50

Hello, listeners, Andy here. Thank you for tuning in. We appreciate that you do. We're also very grateful for our guests who generously join me to create these episodes so that we can celebrate their careers, listen to their stories, and learn from their experiences. In this episode, we're celebrating the career to date of Rachel Wolff. Rachel is the co founder of Movebite an early stage startup on a mission to bring movement into the workday personalised for the needs of each employee. Movebite helps companies reduce absenteeism with a workday AI health coach for every employee. Before Movebite Rachel was a legal counsel for over a decade at Baker and McKenzie, Uber and Navan formally Tripactions Five years ago, she pivoted to workplace well being and helps corporations and employees with their health and wellbeing challenges. Additionally, Rachel is a certified personal trainer, digital well being and crossfit coach. In our conversation, we talk about how she decided she wanted to be a lawyer when she was still a child and this meant she was able to make some helpful decisions at school and university Rachelle describes how she learned about her own preferences from experiencing different roles within the law firm. She shares the positive impact that it had on her when she witnessed a senior lawyer comfortably asking questions and openly explaining that they knew little about a specific topic, and she reveals her passion for health and well being kept tugging at her attention throughout her career until she finally made the switch. I thoroughly enjoyed learning more about Rachel's journey and I'm delighted to be able to share it with you. If you're listening for the first time. Hello, I'm Andy follows I'm a trusted adviser to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to enable Fulfilling Performance. If you'd like to know more about Fulfilling Performance, you can sign up for our weekly newsletter, and you'll find easily digestible ideas on how to increase the levels of performance and fulfilment for yourself, and those you lead and care about. Go to Andy follows.substack.com, or use the link in the show notes to this episode. Hello, rush out and welcome. Where are you coming to us from today?

Rachel Wolff: 3:04

Hi, Andy. I'm coming from Amsterdam, the Netherlands today.

Andy Follows: 3:09

Thank you very much for joining me. Whereabouts did your journey start?

Rachel Wolff: 3:15

So my journey started in [name], which is a very small village near the Hague here in the Netherlands.

Andy Follows: 3:22

And can you tell me a little bit about the environment when you arrived arrived on planet earth? What was the environment that you were dropped into?

Rachel Wolff: 3:33

It was mid 80s. And yeah, I was the firstborn child of my parents. My both of my parents moved to the Netherlands in mid 60s coming from Suriname in South America.

Unknown: 3:46

Wow.

Andy Follows: 3:46

Wow. So you were the firstborn? You did the hard yards helping your parents learn how to parent?

Rachel Wolff: 3:52

Yeah, I think so. I have to I have to correct this. It's the mid 70s They came to the Netherlands.

Andy Follows: 3:58

Okay, and what did you see them doing? I'm always curious what my guests you know what roles they had visibility of aside from the ones that we all get to see the teachers and the bus drivers and hospitality police all these things. What did you see your parents do?

Rachel Wolff: 4:14

My parents were both I think hard workers so my I had this I think for back then 80s 90s My mom was working four days a week. So I grew up with what I call these days a role model of a mom that was working and really striving to make progress in her career. And for my father the same yeah also hard working, trying always to to grow and when we were little my grandparents played a big role in our lives picking us up from school. I have really good memories of my grandfather, bringing me to swimming classes bringing me to ballet classes. Uh, yeah, they've been a huge influence in my life when I was younger.

Andy Follows: 5:05

So your parents were first generation immigrants into the Netherlands? Yes. from Suriname?

Rachel Wolff: 5:11

Yes.

Andy Follows: 5:12

And what brought them here? What were the circumstances for them? Because that's a bold step that any anyone makes moving to another country. So what was the story?

Rachel Wolff: 5:21

Yeah, so what happened? So suriname was a colony of the Netherlands. And in 75, Suriname became independent. And that's when my grandparents decided that there were better chances for their children for themselves to move to the Netherlands. So a bit before the independence in 75. They came, they came to the Netherlands. Yeah. And this is from both from both sides. So from my mom's my grandparents from my mom's side and the grandparents from my father's side.

Andy Follows: 5:51

Okay, so did they know each other? Were your parents together, then when they

Rachel Wolff: 5:55

No, they met here in the Netherlands

Andy Follows: 5:58

Right. Okay. It's painting a picture. And also you

Rachel Wolff: 6:00

During my elementary school, there were painted a picture of having a lot of grandparental influence two things that were usually back in the report, you know, in your childhood. So one of those childhoods where there's a few adults around? Yes. And how would your teachers have described you Rachel? written reports that your parents would get, and she's often distracted, and she loves to talk. And when I went to high school, and around the graduation, they did this, they call this the golden award that they gave to kind of all the students and I was nominated for speaking the most in the class. So I realised that this hadn't changed. So I think yeah, they will probably ask my, my, my teachers back then they would probably say, she loves to talk. And I think they would also like to say that, that I was a helpful student, because I always like to help with kind of side activities after school activity. So I think, maybe I hope if they're gonna say those

Andy Follows: 7:14

okay, so you are definitely very present very, very present in the classroom. In terms of subjects, what preferences did you have,

Rachel Wolff: 7:23

definitely did not have math as a preference. I always make another joke about saying that the reason I went to law school was because numbers were not really my biggest friends. But no what I really liked is subjects around societal matters, geography, history, languages, those were usually the subjects I liked, but also was good at.

Andy Follows: 7:52

Right. So arts and humanities. Yeah. And when did you start to think about what direction you wanted to go in? And when did you start to have ideas about what your career could look like?

Rachel Wolff: 8:04

What I can recall, I was around 9, 10 years old, and that was right when my parents divorced. And during the process, of course, your your parents explained to you that divorce is coming up, and they will in this in our case, my dad would move out of the house. And both of my parents were in a I don't want to say I think a legal fight, but okay, there were stuff that they needed to sort out. And both of my parents had a lawyer, and someday my mom was talking, and she mentioned this person helping her being a lawyer. And I was just fascinated by the fact that there was someone helping sort people's things out and then kind of supporting them in finding the right ways. So when my mom was telling this, she was of course explaining this to me in a childlike way. I thought this is a very interesting job. And this, this sounds like something I would like to do when I grow up. So this was around 9 10 years old, thinking like, oh, this probably sounds like something I wanted to do. And I stick to that until I graduated high school.

Unknown: 9:15

That's

Andy Follows: 9:15

That's fascinating. The idea that you were drawn to the law as a helping profession. So what did how did that influence your choices, going through the next part of school and so on?

Rachel Wolff: 9:29

So here in the Netherlands, you move from elementary school, you go into kind of high school and what I think now in quite a young age, right, you need to decide the core the direction that you that you want to study. And I always made sure that I was doing the right things to get, you know, to being able to be accepted into the university getting the preparing yourself to go into law school. And the joke earlier made with me not being good in math. That was also an excuse to just not being good at it at all. I really disliked anything with math and all those those courses. So for me, it was really like, okay, in order to get into law school, I needed to make sure that the path towards it is going to support that that direction.

Andy Follows: 10:18

Yeah, that's so helpful when you identify your path early enough. It really does help with some of that decision making around next steps. You also highlighted though the risk is you then say, well, I'm not going to need maths. Exactly. You take your foot off the gas, yeah, in some other subjects. Because you think, Oh, well, I'm going to be a lawyer. I don't need that. Which is fine if you succeed. But if you if you don't get your ultimate goal, then you can find you've left some things out. Interesting. So lovely that you knew what you wanted to do. And were you sporty at school?

Rachel Wolff: 10:55

Yeah. So what I did when I was younger, younger being somewhere between like five and 10. I used to dance and swim a lot. And also the Swimming was part of my grandfather being a swimming instructor. So what I one of the things I really love is on my swimming degree we in here in the Netherlands, you get a swimming degree and a for Level A and Level B if if you continue with it. It has my signature of my grandfather.

Andy Follows: 11:26

Oh, that is nice.

Rachel Wolff: 11:27

Yeah. So like, like I earlier said, we spend a lot of times for me and my brother, I have a brother that's four years younger, we spend a lot of time with my grandparents. And we would go to the swimming pool quite a lot with my grandfather, because he was working there. So it was easy for us to go there. And we could just swim. And one of the memories I have with him is that he would always try to make the my swimming technique perfect. Until like I was, I mean, I was a kid and I just wanted to go from jumping in the pool. But he was always like, No, we're going to spend the first X amount of minutes making sure that we're making the swimming technique better. So it swimming's played, it was a big part of my role at the beginning of my youth. Then I moved to dancing. And interestingly enough, when I was in elementary school, sports were not a big part of my life. I was still doing sports, but not as structured as, as when I was younger. And then the moment I went to university, things really changed for me and it became again a huge part of my life.

Andy Follows: 12:35

Where did you go to university was that close to home? Did you have to move out that how did you choose the where you wanted to go?

Rachel Wolff: 12:40

Yeah, so I went to university in Amsterdam. But then, like I earlier mentioned, my parents divorced. So we moved cities with with my mom living closer to her family. And the city is Ijsselstein, which is near [name] and it's around 45 minutes drive from Amsterdam. So the first two years I was commuting between the house where I was living with my mom to Amsterdam. And then afterwards, I moved to Amsterdam and lived in Amsterdam while also studying here.

Andy Follows: 13:17

You've just made me think of another question. You have beautiful English, thank you very much for otherwise I'd be absolutely lost. What language were you speaking at home when you were growing up?

Rachel Wolff: 13:27

We were speaking Dutch.

Andy Follows: 13:29

Okay, and so you learned English in school? Yeah. So tell me about getting to university, then how was that for you?

Rachel Wolff: 13:37

Well, it was very interesting, because like I said, at the beginning, it was the law that I wanted to study. And I had this idea of me helping people. It wasn't even me being a criminal lawyer that was in my mind, because usually that's that's the first thing when people think about the law and becoming a law lawyer. They usually think about criminal law, right? That wasn't my idea was more about finding ways to help people get their rights. And I didn't really know in which shape or form it would be. But that's kind of what I knew. Interestingly enough, when I was in the second year, during law school, I was asking myself, is this the right choice? At that moment, when I was in law school, I had this I had a little job while I was studying as well. So I was working at gym behind the reception and I was doing some admin tasks for the gym. And I really enjoyed that as well being again in that sport environment, wellbeing environment. And this is when you are around the beginning of your 20s and you're thinking like, my whole life was designed towards me studying law, graduating, finding a job as a lawyer and here I am asking myself is this What I want to do or do, I want to do something with health and well being. So it was quite a conflicting period for myself. And it also had to do with my thoughts and beliefs. And also, the way I think I am raised is that if you start something, you have to finish it. And like I said, I was in my second year and law school here in the Netherlands is around four or five years if you take a bit longer for the for your masters. So I felt like, okay, if I'm going to go for the four year I'm kind of halfway, it's not something that I can like, quit now or go for a different study. So it was a conflicting period, and the way I solved it was by doing a course to become an aerobic teacher, which really gave me a lot of joy. But okay, this was something I was doing on the site, next to Yeah, next to the studies. But it did feed that need for me to do something in health and well being it did ended up me graduating from law school. So that did help. In retrospect, I look back at it now. I think it's very interesting that early 20s, I have this pull towards health, health and well being gave into it in the sense that I was working in the environment, next to my studies. But now, kind of 18 years later, I made the biggest pivot towards it again.

Andy Follows: 16:32

So you didn't quit your studies, you were able to think, okay, I can do both. I can have an element of the well being environment and do that alongside my studies. So you've got to finish your qualifications. Okay, so what happened after you qualified or after you finished your studies

Rachel Wolff: 16:49

Yeah. So what happened is that during the five rather? years of me, being in law school, like I mentioned, I was I was working in the gym, and I was doing some stuff in the health and wellbeing space. But the last year, I also realised that, you know, if I want to make it easier for myself to find a job after graduation, it's important that I started to find jobs that I can do next to my studies that are already in the in the legal field. That's how I started working at Baker McKenzie. I started working there when I was still studying. So I had a I was able to work part time there. And for me, that's when the real exposure with the legal fields and lawyers and the real world started and seeing. I mean, it was a big firm, it is a big firm, of course. So yeah, it was a it was a whole new world for me, because you have these expectations, what you think working as a lawyer is, but the moment that you are actually working for it and experiencing it, it's it's a different, it's something different.

Andy Follows: 18:01

What were some of those expectations and some of the reality? Can you think of any particular examples?

Rachel Wolff: 18:07

Yeah. So for me, what was something that was a reality is that if you start so I started as an information specialist then and mean, that means that I was supporting most of the different departments with research case law research, legislations research. And then what I really liked was it was a very independent role. So usually, lawyers, partners, senior lawyers would come to me with a certain request, but I got exposure with all different fields and all the different people within, within Baker McKenzie at that point. And for me, that was a really nice way to kind of figuring out which is the area that I really liked. Because I had, again, I had ideas from my studies like, Okay, this is an area that I like, this is a different area within a law that I don't like, but actually being able to practice it and work with different people really gave me a better understanding of areas that I like and the types of people that I like to interact with. And the interesting part also for me was around that period, we're talking about 2008, 2009, 2010 was the digitalization from journals into electronic systems where you could find stuff so together with my previous manager at Baker McKenzie, we did the whole transformation from kind of paper into digital. And it was amazing to have this legal knowledge, but being able to help people and going from paper to digitalising

Andy Follows: 19:52

That must have been a massive change in the way your job worked. Yeah,

Rachel Wolff: 19:56

Yeah, what was really nice in a period it was This is how we were we had to figure out which system was working for us how we were training the lawyers in kind of finding the case law, the right legislation, instead of doing it the ways in like, Okay, let's go to the library, grab books, and, and journal. So it really gave me what I think is also part of the exposure, why digitalising and kind of technology always be something that I've been attracted to as well.

Andy Follows: 20:30

Yeah. And as you are getting exposure to all these different lawyers, all these different people, all these different subject areas, what were you discovering about your preferences?

Rachel Wolff: 20:42

This is also again, something that I was thinking about afterwards, because I spent five years at Baker McKenzie, one of the things that I really liked, it was on kind of a relatively young age, or early or very early on in my career, I had a lot of autonomy and independency. So of course, I had to work with people. And I had to deliver the stuff. And there was usually a timeline, but it was the way I choose to find the things the way I choose to deliver things. And I've been I've been working as an information specialist for four years. And then within Baker McKenzie, I started to work my last year. So the 5th year, I transitioned from the information specialist into a support lawyer in the practice group mergers and acquisitions. And that was a completely dynamic shift for me, because what happened was, all of a sudden, I was working with the partners, and I was working with one particular senior counsel. And I kind of had to wait for them to provide me with tasks. So when there was those previous four years, it was people coming to me and I could decide how to deliver it. And all of a sudden, I had the shift from being what I like to call kind of dependent on them providing me with work. So that was for me, when I realised that, you know, continuing a lawyer within a law firm wasn't for me. And that's also after I tried it for one year, because again, this was the voice in my head saying like, well, you make a shift. This is not something where you can give up in two months if you don't like it. So I tried it for a year. But that was when I realised that probably working at a law firm as a lawyer isn't for me. And that's when I made the transition into becoming an in house legal counsel.

Andy Follows: 22:37

So when you were an information specialist, you were never short of things to do. And you had the autonomy to decide what you're going to approach next. You knew your own deliverables, and you knew who needed what, by when and how you were going to do it. And there was a steady stream, a pipeline of work. And then you went to sitting and being dependent on somebody else. You gave it 12 months, that was the only option. Was it in the law firm. That was what life was going to be like for the next phase if you stayed there. Yeah. Okay. So having concluded that, and having spent 12 months making sure that this was thought through decision, what did you do to change your circumstances?

Rachel Wolff: 23:22

If I look at my whole career, I think this was the most challenging year that I had in my career. And the way this is again, in hindsight, when you look back at it, and you think about it, like I was always so happy when Friday was around the corner, but it wasn't the type of ah I'm happy it's Friday I've been doing all like I have this completely different feeling that I have these days. But it was really like oh I'm so relieved to not be in this environment anymore. And it was really it was really a tough a tough 12 months for me So what made me decide to move on and not continuing the lawyer working for a law firm was well like I just said it was really I think I could say miserable for me but I'm very happy because I did learn a lot of things in those 12 months what I like but also mostly what I don't like and the circumstances around it. One thing that I was kind of was still clear is okay, I have the experience five years of Baker McKenzie experience or I can use that to continue a legal legal career and I really wanted to try in house legal work because I just for some reason thought there will be way better fit for me. So I moved to Mexx, I don't know if you know Mexx its apparel brand. They were very known back in 90s. Early in 2000s as well

Andy Follows: 24:58

I'm not known for my fashion awareness? So it's m e double x? Yes. If I don't know about Mexx, that is no reflection on them as a brand. I'm very grateful for you talking so openly about what your experience was in that 12 months where when Friday came kind of glad to be out of that environment, how would it have looked to outsiders? Because on the face of it, you've got a successful job in a law firm Baker McKenzie is what you set out to do. They're a global brand. How would have looked to your friends and and people looking on? What would it look like you were living the dream? Or would they have known that you weren't happy?

Unknown: 25:45

I mean, if you are what I was called, like, if you look at it from an on paper, right, if you will see the resume and you'd be like, oh, you know, graduated move to Baker McKenzie. Yes, as a law student that wants to work for these big firms. It's kind of the dream that that's how it goes. But my friends, and also my parents have always been open about them that the last year was a struggle for me. And I've very supportive parents in the sense that they were really supporting me like, if you're not happy doing what you're doing, then find something else that is kind of in line with what you're trained for, and try something new.

Andy Follows: 26:27

Thank you for saying that. I just wanted to take the opportunity to point out that just because things look great on paper, doesn't necessarily mean that the lived experience, or maybe even the things that look great on LinkedIn, or on social media, the individual may not be having the satisfaction and fulfilment that it looks like to someone looking in. So thank you for being open about your experience there. So you went you thought you'd love in house, you had this attraction towards being an in house lawyer? What was it that you thought would be different about that? Was it a steady stream of work and a bit more autonomy? Or what was it that appealed to you. So what appealed to me was working with different people. And it was similar to those first four years at Baker McKenzie, where I was doing things for different people within the different legal fields. And I kind of saw this similar approach when you're in house counsel, where you work with a tax department, the finance department, commercial department. So I was expecting something similar here where you can be really of value for people. And I think maybe when I'm thinking about this now is, maybe there was a difference between those first four years and Baker McKenzie and my last year is that I could be of value for people in those four years, I could help them with whatever they were looking for, to build their case or help their clients. And in the last year, I didn't probably feel the added value. In my experience, the moment that you become an in house legal counsel, you can again, add value to the business and to different departments within the within the company. And how did that live up to your expectations then?

Rachel Wolff: 28:14

So I think what was really nice is that when I moved to Mexx, this was early 2014. And it was a very small legal team. So it was three of the we were with three people, the legal team, what I really noticed was that I felt human again, I felt seen, heard valued. And something that also I've learned over the last few years is really important for me that I can be me and I'm not just a puppet on a string, and this is what you asked me and this is what I delivered. And I can remember that they were in the middle of a reorganisation when I joined and they had freelance legal so they have somebody that was a freelance lawyer that was doing the job that I that they hired me to do. And I took over, we transition the work to me and I can remember that the first week I was like, what am I doing here. And I was like, I don't know if I can do this whole reorganisation by my I mean, that was the first doing it by myself but leaders and yeah, it was really the first few weeks were, I think with every job very overwhelming and I was questioning myself every day. If this was the right move, but in a few weeks, it felt like home. And definitely, like I mentioned that my two colleagues we were a small legal team, three of us all female, they were very supportive. And they really kind of brought me up to speed and also other stakeholders within the company that I was working with.

Unknown: 29:57

Again,

Andy Follows: 29:57

Again, so much valuable insight there, Rachel. So I loved it when you said, I could be more myself, honestly, the more we can be ourselves at work, I think that's golden. So that's great that you had that observation and with hindsight, so would you support how that feels and how valuable it is not only to you but to an employer as well.

Rachel Wolff: 30:25

Yeah, I think if, if any employer or maybe let's let's bring it back to a manager, if any manager can make a new hire, or even somebody that's already in your team reporting to you feel more at home, they can be themselves and they are able to share with you that they find the new assignment or the new project they're working on hard, or they're not sure how to do it, it makes a whole lot of difference. And I experienced this at Mexx when I was like I hired and this will be like I already said in this big reorganisation, there was a lot of things that were new to me, but my manager, but also my other legal colleague, both of them created an environment for me to say like, Hey, if you have questions, it's alright, you come in. And I do think what also helped was that my manager back then she was hired a few months before me. And I think that definitely helped and shaped the relationship as well for her the whole environment. And the projects that were going on were new as well. So it was kind of like we were in this together. And I am very grateful for her to create this phase where, yeah, where I could just be like, this is new to me, and I fit on it, and I will figure it out. Because that's that's also part of me, I am a person that you can put me somewhere and I will try to figure it out in a way that works or maybe doesn't work. But I think it makes a huge difference. And yeah, for any of your listeners, like if you are a manager or your inspire, to become a manager at some point and creating an environment for people where they can feel safe and they feel at home and they want to share with you, I think you you will be up for success, in my opinion.

Unknown: 32:28

Well,

Andy Follows: 32:28

Well, that's you and me both thinking that. I'd ask people also to consider how much wasted time and energy goes into someone trying to figure out what you want them to do how you want to show up, if you don't encourage them to just show up as the person they are with what they know. And everything else, then they're just gonna waste time and company money trying to figure it out

Rachel Wolff: 32:55

Yeah, but it is interesting what you're mentioning here Andy because I was recently reading a report and they were actually saying that in terms of mental health for employees, one of the things that is very big stress is not knowing what is is expected from them. So if you as a manager or a team lead or in whatever position you are, where people report to you, you can make it clear or together come up with this is what we expect from you. How do you as an employee, think about this, and you come up with ways that people know what is being expected from them? I think it's, you know, first step of making things easier for people.

Andy Follows: 33:38

Well, I agree with you so strongly on it is it is one of the four fundamentals of our fulfilling Performance Framework is clarity. And the question we use is, how clear are you about what you're supposed to be doing and how you're doing against those expectations? That's one of the four fundamentals to people being able to perform at a high level and experience a sense of fulfilment from what they're doing. So I am totally on board with you. So is there anything about else about your time at Mexx that stands out for you with hindsight?

Rachel Wolff: 34:11

Yes, I think so. I worked there for one year, and it wasn't that I didn't like it. What happened was the company had to file for bankruptcy. So I think also important to mention is when I made the transition from Baker McKenzie to Mexx, I was aware of their financial situation. But it was I was also at a point that I thought like, well, I can take a risk. If it doesn't work out, I will find a new job. So I was always aware that their financial position wasn't better. They were not in the most healthiest financial position. So fast forward. What happened is the end of 2014 they had to file for bankruptcy. And it was around that period where Of course, the legal department plays a huge role in in the process. What happened is that both of my legal colleagues were on holiday. And then all of a sudden, it was me that needed to work with the CFO and the CEO and joining meetings and calls, which, again, I never experienced. And i thought, this is probably not decisions that I have to make. But it really taught me that, you know, sometimes situations are, what they are, and how can I help and use my common sense and ask for help, which wasn't always the easiest thing for me, you know, find the right people to speak with and then find the information and put it together and present it in a way that you think is good? Well, I really see it as a good exercise to experience like, Okay, this is a situation where I have no idea what I needed to do, but okay, we are in a situation, my colleagues are holiday And I need to jump in. And so I did learn a lot from it. And it really also what I say like, it boosted this kind of confident muscle in me as like, Hey, I'm a legal professional that is able to, at the beginning of the year, go to a new company, you know, being in this new position and finding ways to make it work. And then at the end of the year, when the bankruptcy came, here, you have to deal with these new kind of matters and problems that arise. So with kind of with that, also, I was also thinking I need to look for my next job, because this is not gonna and in a way that I that I would like, that's when I went to Uber.

Andy Follows: 36:51

Brilliant. A couple of things there that I really thought I wanted to shine a light on the fact that you knew when you joined Mexx that they were not in the strongest financial position, and you did the evaluation that actually this is okay, I can afford to take this risk, I'm going to learn, you know, the pros and cons. This is going to be okay. And I think that's really helpful thing to have people think about what sort of timeframe does this need to work for me, you know, am I joining for the rest of my life? Or is there going to be enough runway here that it will be mutually beneficial, I'll be able to add value. And I'll be able to learn, and that's what you did. And so when it came to the outcome, the bankruptcy that wasn't the end of the world. And also, what happens when people go on holiday. And you have to step up. And often, it's not until people are completely out of the picture that you get the confidence benefit. And you ask for help. You weren't afraid to ask for help. And when you describe that, Rachel, you sounded like it was a bit of a challenge for you to do that.

Rachel Wolff: 38:01

Yeah. And so when I was younger, and and I'm talking about when I was still a student at the beginning of my career, I always thought that you had to know everything. And I felt like Yeah, but if I asked this, they might think that I don't know what I'm talking about. Or they might think that I'm not up to the job. It was something that again, I don't know where it was coming from, but I was telling myself like, it's not really okay to ask questions, because they can be stupid, or they, they, they they maybe they don't think that I know what I'm talking about. So I was always a bit hesitant doing it. But I think one of the lessons that I've learned when moving to Mexx and then getting you know, all these new tasks was ask the questions, especially when this was the first time that I was exposed to working with different teams or working with a finance team, tax team, with business teams. And of course, sometimes accounting, talking in their accounting languages or business teams were talking about particular business. And this is when I started to learn like okay, but what do you mean exactly, and really making sure that I could paint the right picture. And fast forward to the period that Mexx was dealing with bankruptcy, and there were so many things that I needed to do that I never done. This is again, where I was like, Okay, I need to ask the questions. Otherwise, I can't understand how I need to deliver my piece that I can support them. When I saw I started going to Uber with this in mind, like it's kind of okay to ask questions. It's actually helping you to paint the picture better. I remember that I was working with a legal director. And one thing that I will never forget is we were in a meeting with outside counsels talking about this particular subject. And he said to the outside counsel, I don't know anything about French law. So maybe you can explain this to me so that I can understand and also see how it kind of fits in in our case. And I was listening to this and it just blew my mind. Because here it was a legal director with many, many years of experience saying this out loud, but it was usually in my head, like, can I ask this? Is it okay to ask all these questions, just saying it like, I don't know exactly how this is. So you guys explained this to me. And I will never forget this moment. And it was like, so even if you have all these years of experience, it's still okay to ask questions and to make sure that you really understand something.

Andy Follows: 40:48

Let me take a moment to tell you about our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by ASKE Consulting who are experts in executive search, resourcing solutions and talent management across all sectors of the automotive industry in the UK and Europe. I've known them for almost 20 years, and I can think of no more fitting sponsor for CAREER-VIEW MIRROR. They're the business we go to at Aquilae when we're looking for talent for our clients and for projects that we're working on. ASKE was founded by Andrew McMillan, whose own automotive career includes board level positions with car brands and leasing companies. All ASKE Consultants have extensive client side experience, which means they bring valuable insight and perspective for both their employer and candidate customers. My earliest experience of working with Andrew was back in 2004, when he helped me hire regional managers for my leasing Sales Team at Alphabet. More recently, when Aquilae was helping a US client to establish a car subscription business, ASKE Consulting was alongside as helping us to develop our people strategy, and to identify and bring onboard suitable talent. Clients we've referred to ASKE have had an equally positive experience. Andrew and the team at ASKE are genuinely interested in the long term outcomes for you and the people they place with you. They even offer the reassurance of a two year performance guarantee, which means they have skin in the game when working with you. If you're keen to secure the most talented and high potential people to accelerate your business and gain competitive advantage, do get in touch with them and let them know I sent you. You can email Andrew and the team at Hello@askeconsulting.co.uk or check out their website for more details. And more client feedback at www.askeconsulting.co.uk. ASKE is spelt A S K E. You'll find these contact details in the show notes for this episode. Okay, let's get back to our episode. So how did you go about finding the job at Uber?

Rachel Wolff: 42:49

This was to my manager at Mexx. So before she joined Mexx, she was also working as a freelance lawyer for Uber. So she knew the recruiter. And this was the. So she came back from holiday. And this was the period where we were like, yeah, so probably we all need to find new jobs. I always kind of saw Uber as this like this new tech company, which I would love to work for, but they didn't have any positions open. So I was like, Okay, there's no legal position. So I don't think they have anything. And then she said, like, you know what, I can just send an email to the recruiter and see what is there because they're usually hiring quite rapidly. And so she did and then Yeah, lucky for me, and I think it was an hour or two hours later, I got an email saying like, we actually are looking for a corporate lawyer. So I'm going to connect you with the right recruiter. And that's how it started.

Andy Follows: 43:47

Another great lesson just because people aren't advertising just because they're not out there in the market. Don't think you can't contact them. Yeah. What have you got to lose? Was she interested to go to Uber? Or was she just helping you to get?

Rachel Wolff: 44:00

No, she was just helping me out.

Andy Follows: 44:02

Right. And that worked out? What was the process?

Rachel Wolff: 44:05

I think I had six or seven interviews, which usually what I understood was there, the process takes two to three months. And in my case, it took four weeks, because they were positions open for quite a while and they were actually about to hire someone when my profile came around,

Andy Follows: 44:27

and how clear were you about what your expectations were from that and what you were looking for. I'm curious, to what extent did you enter this process, thinking this is a two way street. So going back to Mexx kind of being bankrupted? And I knew that I had to start looking for a new job, the first time in my life that I experienced that like oh, I will be out of a job. And even though that I kind of knew were aware of the risks that could happen. It still hit me when it happened and I knew I came home and I was just so restless about like, Okay, I need to find a job. I cannot be unemployed like, How is this possible? This is not me, I cannot be unemployed, I was really constantly going in my mind. So next day, of course started to see what are job positions are out there. What do I like? Knowing a bit more about myself and knowing okay, it's definitely going to be in house. But what type of company do you want to work for? Because when you think about it in house, legal counsel, like there are tonnes of different industries that you can work for type of companies. So one of the things that I knew was definitely international environments. Because at Mexx, we had a very diverse workforce, which I really enjoyed. So I knew I liked the diversity in the workforce is something that's really important for me, international possibilities, and a company that is international operating would be important for me. And I started to look around and fast forward in a few weeks, I got hired by IBM, that process went really quickly. And I can remember that I went to the office for the first interview, and the office was really different from Mexx. So imagine Mexx being this cool apparel brand. And they had fashion everywhere, like there were like racks full of clothes and quite young energised fun, dynamic workforce, and all of a sudden you go to I don't, I hope I don't offend anyone at IBM. But all of a sudden, I had this interview at IBM. And it was quite different from what I experienced at Mxex. So I continued with the process got hired, didn't sign the contract, because I was kind of starting then to speak with Uber. And I was hoping that Uber would work out. So it happened. So Uber worked out. So I thanked for the opportunity at IBM, but I can recall this feeling inside that I was like, Okay, I will work for IBM, but most likely, this is not the type of company that I was really attracting me. Would it be too much to say this was a cultural fit. You were thinking in terms of?

Rachel Wolff: 47:18

Yeah, no, I think that's actually the right thing to say. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Follows: 47:22

So you recognise this isn't going to be the cultural fit that I'm looking for. But fortunately, Uber came through. Yeah. And you identified that you wanted to work at Uber, you thought it would be a good technology company, be interesting place? Where did you want to even more as you went through the process?

Unknown: 47:40

Yeah, I think it so the first few interviews at Uber were all screen interviews or online interviews. And then at some point, they invited me to the office. And I think it was that moment, when I went to the office. Here in Amsterdam, I kind of met our legal team, which was really small back then it was four or five people, when I realised like, oh, but this is actually the environment is really nice. They had a beautiful office in the centre of Amsterdam. Really big windows, daylight and stuff that I really like. And you get even more excited, then of course, you meeting the team. And then from my point of view, to also click with the team, and Okay, later, the team also, like me, so yeah, I definitely when in the process, I started to hoping on a Yes.

Andy Follows: 48:31

And did you have in mind, your own expectations? I mentioned this before. So were you trying to match what they were talking about with what I'm going to need how I'm going to thrive in this role.

Unknown: 48:44

It was I was really, that's why I'm very grateful with my one year and Mexx, because what they were looking for was very aligned with certain topics that I was doing at Mexx. Like I mentioned at beginning earlier was they were about to hire someone else. But I mean, she had less experience than me. So when they started to tell me about the role and what they would expect from me, and now I can it was in 2015. So it was a lot of expansion in Europe and in the Asian market. Similar what I've done at Mexx but in a like the other side reorganisation, but basically bringing it down in but now was expansion. It really fitted well, it was like Mexx was preparing me for the role at Uber.

Andy Follows: 49:31

And when you were successful, and you were offered the position, do you remember that moment?

Unknown: 49:37

So what I could remember was the moment that they invited me to come to the Amsterdam office and meet the legal team. So I had interviews with all the legal team members. They said, Okay, then the final interview was with our general counsel who was in San Francisco, and the recruiter, she told me like yeah, if we go to the final interview with General Counsel usually this is seen as getting to know and she still has to sign off. So when that interview happened I was very nervous, I can still remember, I was very nervous. And then it was such a nice interview, she was so kind. And afterwards I can remember it was a 30 minute interview. And afterwards I thought, like, was I worried about this? So, after that interview, I kinda knew that, it would really surprise me if it wouldn't if I wouldn't get an offer. And I think the day after, or Yeah, quite quickly after that meeting, they made me an offer.

Andy Follows: 50:42

I'm glad I asked you that, because I was going to ask you also about the culture at Uber. So what how was the culture talk a little about the culture at Uber for you.

Unknown: 50:53

So my I joined Uber early 2015 till mid 2020. So I for me, personally, I see like, I've seen the whole growth within in kind of the Amsterdam office. So to kind of give a better example, when I joined, I was around between 60 to 70 employee within within Uber Amsterdam office, it was still the period where you would be in the in the kitchen, making your coffee, and will be like, Oh, hey, your new face. And you would just say like, Yeah, I'm from the legal team, and the other person would introduce themselves. So it was a very, yeah, open and nice environment. But again, when I left mid 2020, there were around 1100 peolple. So as you can imagine, this was this mean an exponential growth in employees and teams and from easy decision making until five people have to say, give a goal to make something happen. So that's really the experience that I had, in those almost six years that I was there. So I seen a lot of different aspects from the culture, good and bad. Let's start with the bad ones. So I think the bad one really shaped me in how I look at cultures and dynamics between managers and employees. And also, it I think, helped me to shape where I am today, in terms of well being and healthy well being within companies. So I think seeing the things that I would not recommend for employees for companies gave me a clearer picture. But on the on the other side, on the good side, I think this exponential growth that I've experienced from 2015, till till May 2020, in my case really helped me accelerate my career. Because I started as the I think it was the fifth or sixth international legal counsel. So outside the US, and it really exposed me to topics, making decisions about things, doing things that I think you would in a normal company, or more established company, you would only have if you would be at a particular senior, senior level. So in that sense, I am very grateful that the culture back then was just get things done. And we'll see. And it was easy too because lines were easy. Like I said, You didn't have to go through different hopes and different people to get sign off, because basically one person signing off. And also for me, I moved into a managerial role started to lead a team things that yeah, again, I think in a normal, more established company would have taken way longer.

Andy Follows: 53:50

So things happen quicker in a hyper scaling company, you get opportunities you wouldn't get you get levels of responsibility. Yeah, you get international exposure. So were you sitting in a team of international lawyers then who were meeting virtually from time to time, but your peers were all around the world? Yeah. And you mentioned that was where you got your first leadership and managerial opportunities. So how did that come about? And just talk to me a little bit about that.

Unknown: 54:18

So this is actually I think, also an interesting story. This was around I think, the second month or second or third month that I was working for Uber and I saw the pile of work that needed to be done. And I was just looking, and I was working really hard and long hours, which was fine, because I was also enjoying it. But it was at some point I started to look at myself and the hours that I was setting in and I thought like everything that they expect me to do, I won't be able to do this because it's only me and I only have a certain amount of time and certain levels of energy and I also I need to rest and do sports and sleep. So this was a period when I felt like I either will feel or before I know it, I have a burnout or anything that is not really healthy. So I had the I had a conversation with my manager about this, the amount of the volume of work that needed to be done. It's not something that they can expect from one person. And in the beginning, he understood it, but it it was like, Yeah, we don't know if we have capacity to hire new resource to new XR resources. Well, the kind of the usual, so maybe we can figure it out. So I tried, but nothing changed. So again, I kind of went back saying like, this is not going to work, you're either gonna set me up for to fail, or I decide to leave. And it was the legal director in San Francisco that really supported me [name] is his name that supported me to get XR resources and find ways to make it doable for me. So I always say I think without his support, I wouldn't have been around Uber all those years, because he was really in those first six months trying to help me.

Andy Follows: 56:22

So he could see that you were doing your best. Yeah, and that it wasn't going to be sustainable. So then you got the opportunity to hire some people now. And how were you as a manager, if you like? How are your aspirations when you've got your first report?

Unknown: 56:39

Yeah, so interesting question Andy. I don't think I ever thought about how am I going to be as a manager, like what type of manager do I want it to be? But what I think I always was thinking about is, these people are smart people, I don't have to tell them what they need to do is, together as a team, we need to kind of make sure that we know what is expected from each other. From the beginning that I started the team, we started to divide sub regions within EMEA and within APEC to make things easier. I'm really a believer in if I hire you, I hire you because I think you're a great person and you are ready for the job. And you don't need me to tell you what to do. Yes, we're gonna set out some sort of roadmap, things that we need to achieve by the end of the quarter by the end of the year, and some practicalities around how we would like to work with each other. But I and this is even before this was of course, before COVID, before working from home was accepted at Uber, we could usually work sometimes like maybe every other week, you could work from home one day that was accepted. But for me, if somebody would want to work from home, again, you are a mature grown up you can be I hire you, because I trust you that you have the capabilities and skills. And far none of the hires Well, that's not true. I had one hire that disappointed me. But after two months it was very clear that this wouldn't work out. But all the other hires are all great people that were able to, you know, take the responsibilities and deliver what they needed to do. So coming back to your question, I don't think I had a real like clear idea how I wanted to be a manager. But I always thought about, first of all, I don't want to micromanage you will because it's even also adding extra work on my plate. If I have to think what you need to do. I hire you, because I really think that you are a great person and ready to do the job. So yeah, that was what I was trying to accomplish with the people that I was hiring.

Andy Follows: 58:53

Ok. so how did your career progress through Uber?

Unknown: 58:58

So yeah, within Uber, I kind of went from different roles. So I made my promotion within it, I became responsible for the corporate governance within EMEA, including leading the leading the team and you know, supporting them. And yeah the different kind of stages within Uber also changed my role and responsibilities and deliverables that I had.

Andy Follows: 59:26

And is there anything else about your time in Uber that we should bring to the surface before we move to the next phase.

Unknown: 59:32

Yeah, I think this is probably going to tie into the next phase is that remember I told you at the beginning about when I was studying law in the second year came around health and well being? So here we are, and I can, again, this is one of those things that is like I feel like imprinted in my memory and it was the summer of 2018 and I was biking to the office. That's how we commute here in Amsterdam, it was a lovely summer day. And the thought started to pop up in my mind like, is this the work that I wanted to do? I think it's really important that it was not about the particular legal work that I wasn't liking but it was about, kind of the scenery of being an employee. And if I would take a next step would that be in the legal field, but then as as an entrepreneur, or would it be something that really also kind of was still pulling my attention to health and well being being one of the Yeah, so that was also the period when I became a competitive CrossFit athlete, there was early there was in 2018 2019. So what happened for me was that I started to have a team at Uber, so I got a better work life balance, I was able to leave the office around six train, I'm a big CrossFit fan. So I could do my CrossFit come home, kind of have an evening, and then the next day, repeat, go to the office and train. And I was really enjoying it. And I thought like is this the next move is the next move for me going to be in health and well being because I saw all these positive changes for myself. And also within my team, we started to talk about ok can you like, go, I was really encouraging my team to find ways for themselves besides working to, you know, move their body, do something physical, do something you enjoy. Some started doing CrossFit enjoyed it, some really didn't like it started doing other things. But it was really important for me that they also started finding other things outside of work

Andy Follows: 1:01:49

incredible that you were able to get that balance in your own life and then wanting your employees to really have more than just their work to focus on. So what what did you do?

Unknown: 1:02:02

So I wanted to tie into that, like, it felt always that you your to do list was never done. And I always said this to my team, like, there will be a day tomorrow, because you were working till eight o'clock here or nine in the evening or you go home and you're going to open up your laptop, the work will be there. If there's no house on fire, what I would call it, then go do something for yourself. Because yeah, I think it's so important for people to have something outside of their work or entrepreneurial journey that is not related to work.

Andy Follows: 1:02:42

Yes. And how did it then affect your decisions about staying or leaving? Did you eventually think, right, I need to do something more about this.

Unknown: 1:02:51

Yeah. So for me this, the thoughts and ideas started to kind of what I kind of called, like coming back to me like this is really an area that I was pulled in a health and well being. And then wanted to really think about like, what is it that I like? So what is it that I like and would like to do next? But I also had this other belief that was really hard for me. And I kind of had to struggle with this for a few months thinking I was in my early 30s, then how can you now switch all the sudden, like you can't like go from one career all of a sudden in something else that? Yes, you you enjoy? But like, what do you know? And I will it was really a tough period for me to kind of overcome those thoughts of like, but you have no degree in it? And are you the person to do this? Because yes, you can like it. But are you really gonna like it when you're going to make a living out of it? And are you able to make a living out of a job? It required some Yeah, some reflection to time for me to think I started working with a coach to kind of really figure out what would be the next step because I wanted to really think it through and I feel like I do something that is gonna align with the values and the things that I get excited about. It took a few months to really get this around. And I think the biggest belief that I had was like, Can you switch careers? Yeah, and looking back at it now. It really sounds silly. But I had really a hard time back then to think about can you switch careers. I mean, you're a trained lawyer, like you went to law school and all of a sudden, but for me it it switched when I thought okay, but if I'm going to work till what do you say early 60s, you have 30 more years so it's probably fine if those previous kind of five years or you're gonna change a completely different direction.

Andy Follows: 1:04:54

I think is super that you're sharing those exact thoughts that you were having, goodness me I'm early 30s Now I can't start changing career at this, I've left it way too late. Those were real thoughts and real barriers for you that you had to overcome. And were you still at Uber when you were having these thoughts and talking to your coach and deliberating over whether this was even feasible or not? Okay, so what did that look like? What did your next steps look like, once you'd made the decision that this probably was feasible?

Unknown: 1:05:29

Once I kind of got a better understanding, and I, for me, I do really think that in this journey, CrossFit played a big role. Because what I've started to learn through CrossFit is that it's not only the physical training that's going to help me it's not like I won't be able to become a quicker athlete or a stronger athlete by just going to train two hours after work, I realised and I had a good coach that also helped me is you need to sleep well, like your nutrition needs to be dialled in. But also, if I have a lot of stress, stress at work, and I don't know how to deal with that, like, yeah, my, my performance in the gym won't be up to where I would like it to be. So together with her, you kind of started to create a plan, right? Like, okay, get enough hours of sleep and make sure that you eat the right things, and that you're able to perform in the gym. And it was by far, not as easy as I describe it now, and especially the sleeping part, because I just like I have this weird habit that I don't like to go to bed early. But I do like to wake up early. A challenge. I mean, I'm getting way better at it. But it especially in those years, when I started to realise that it's a holistic view, if you really want to be healthy, and you want to perform at a certain level. So once I for myself started to play around with it and figuring out like, how is work fitting into this picture? How is training figure fitting in? How was my social life fitting in? Where do I want to go? What makes me happy? How can I eat in the right way. So all these components together, I kind of was starting to play with it. And that's also when I realised, and I started having the conversations with other people and saw like, Hey, this is actually something that a lot of people find hard. And then I don't have children. So I didn't don't have like, even the extra responsibility of being a parent and dealing with it. But when I started to speak with colleagues and friends that became parents around that time, I really thought like, Yeah, this is a real challenge for people and not as easy as it may sound. And for me, it was the realisation that I always thought about health back then as like, Okay, you need to move and you need to eat well, but no like this. A head, you know, if it's in between our ears, not right, if we don't sleep well, it's affects everything, it affects the body, but it also affects our thoughts. So this is one of the kind of the puzzles start to shape for me. And I thought like, okay, that's the direction that I wanted to go in. And here we go back to helping people. It's the direction that I see my colleagues and some of my friends struggling with like, either even going to a gym, or getting the exercise of eating in the right way. And I thought like, Okay, this is something I'm super passionate about, I actually want to learn more about. So it was early 2019 When I decided to start going to trainings to make sure that I understand all these pieces. And it was around mid m id 2020 Yeah it was in the pandemic, early on in the pandemic, when I yeah, I started to bring everything together and then slowly started to create a picture for myself, like how I think I could help people further.

Andy Follows: 1:09:12

And were you thinking that you could accommodate this whilst being at Uber or were you thinking at some point I need to, I'm going to have to leave and make the next step.

Unknown: 1:09:22

No so for me, this was also around the beginning of the pandemic. And then another major life event happened and that's by so why I mentioned earlier my parents are divorced. My mom she found a new partner when I was 12. So he's was in our life for basically the majority of my life. And early 2020. We found out that he had ALS, the muscle disease where slowly the people can't move speak anymore.

Andy Follows: 1:09:57

This is the one also known as Lou Gehrig's.

Rachel Wolff: 1:09:59

Yes exactly, yeah. Okay. So our family was, yeah, I mean, all of a sudden, this came out of nowhere. And for me, this was really an event that happened and and made me really take a step back and see where am I in my life because back then he was 55. We I mean, as a family, we were, yeah, struck by this. And I didn't know anything about the disease besides that, it's declining. And yeah, people won't survive it. But, of course, the moment that, that you're hit, as a family by this, you start looking into, you're gonna go on Google, basically, and read about it. And you see that life expectancy is somewhere between three to five years, but there are cases that people have it for 20 years, and they only in a wheelchair, and there were all these different cases, so and also the doctors, they cannot tell you what they expect from the disease, how it will turn out in particular individual cases. So we kinda Yeah, had to go through it and see how things will progress with my stepdad. It was definitely, I think, a pivotal moment in my life to experience this and think, okay, hold on, if life can be so unpredictable, and you know, like, we don't know. And there was the moment that I was thinking like, Okay, I am investing in all these courses and trainings to, you know, make my next step. But I didn't really have an idea when the next step would be. But there was the moment when this happened to our family that I thought, okay, if I'm not super happy anymore, in doing the job that I'm doing, and I'm already putting in the energy to change it. Let's actually have a better plan here. But at the same time, I didn't know what would happen to our family, because we're close family. And I knew that I kind of had to step in maybe at some point supporting my mom. But again, it's the unknown, like, you don't know what's going to happen, but also, as a person, like how will you deal with seeing somebody you love decline in in his health and in his ability, I mean, he was a sports like, he loves sports, he loved music, he loved football. So all these things like all the sudden you have to think. And for me, this was the moment that I thought, I'm not sure if I'm ready to go on to the entrepreneurial journey, but because I don't know what's going to happen in my personal life. Like, I wanted to be able that if I get a call from my mom, this is going on, I can just drop everything and go. So that made me really think about like, what is the next step after Uber, and I decided to move on to another legal position. Back then it was called TripActions, they now rebranded into Navan. But what I did created for myself was I did told them that I wanted to work for them as a legal counsel, but I wanted to have one day where I can explore my coaching practice. And they agreed with it. So I was very grateful, and especially them being an American company where working four days, was not very known. I mean, here in the Netherlands, it's more common that people work four days, but they they accepted it. So I was very grateful to be able to work four days as a as a legal counsel, being able to kind of work and do what I know that I can deliver, have one day where I can start focusing on my coaching and consultancy practice in the workplace, while also being ready to support my family when they would need it. So there was yeah, there was a pivotal moment when our family was hit with this news.

Andy Follows: 1:14:04

It's very sad to hear that and completely understand how it affected your own views on your own mortality and what life might look like in the in the in the ensuing years. And I think really helpful to share that you didn't just leap. You put in place a transition or plan for yourself perfectly typified by that four days. And one day to focus on your coaching and your consultancy is really sensible. You are taking a risk, obviously, but you're mitigating that risk as far as you can. So we know how it ends up. So what do we need to talk about between now before we dive into what you're doing now? What other key moments were there?

Rachel Wolff: 1:14:54

Yeah, I think my two years at TripActions were very interesting in the sense that it was still the pandemic, so I was the only European legal counsel here in Europe and my, the rest of the legal team was all in San Francisco, but I couldn't travel to San Francisco because of all the bans and then everything that was in place back then. So it was, I think a very interesting journey for me as a as a personal journey is like working completely remote, but having the support of my team, but okay, we had nine hours difference. So I would connect with my team, usually around four or 5pm, Amsterdam time. So basically, my whole day was done. So I learned quite a few things in dealing with, with the challenge of working remote, while being in a pandemic. And I definitely think going back to things that we touched upon earlier about managers, I think I had really a great manager at TripActions [name]. She was, I think, one of the most human managers I experienced, and especially in a period where I was really also myself, dealing with the disease of my stepfather and being able to support my family. Like I think, her understanding and her freedom that she gave me to find ways for me to still be able to deliver what I kind of needed to deliver but also dealing with my family situation was something I'm very, very grateful for how she dealt with it. And, again, this is this is a tech company, right? Where the culture of things need to move quick. But her being super human and understanding it, I think it's just an example of what good manager is. And the other thing I think that I wanted to also touch upon is again, going back to being able to share that you don't know something. So I went from Uber into the travel and afterwards in the financial payment. And this was again, a new industry for me. So there were a lot of questions and a lot of things that I had to learn but creating that environment that I felt like I can ask all these questions and learn was really appreciated.

Andy Follows: 1:17:19

Some solid, solid, transferable lessons. Yes. And all the while you had your eye on the prize, which was presumably to get out of your corporate situation and become full time entrepreneur in your business. Was there a moment when that became feasible? Or did you set a time line sort of 24 months out? Or was it a case of the stars aligned one day? And you thought, actually, no, now's the time I get it.

Rachel Wolff: 1:17:47

There was a bit of a timeline there. But also in that period, my stepfather passed away. So there was a bit for me that okay. Again, the timeline wasn't as the way I thought it through, because I knew that I also needed some time to grieve and to process everything that happened after those past two years. So I wasn't really sure like, if leaving my job was the right thing, like Did I did I have the energy, the right mindset to start an entrepreneurial journey? Because you need to be in the right mindset, you need to have the energy to do it. So there was a moment that I thought, okay, I had my timeline of 24 months, we even got close to those 24 months. And I thought like, yeah, am I ready for it? Is this it? Or should I take a bit more time to stay in the, let's call it the safe environment? The was a bit of a stars aligning here that there were two kind of things that were coming at the same time. So one is I got an opportunity to join a startup as a co founder. And then on the other hand, there was an internal reorganisation within TripActions of them moving to Berlin. And yeah, these two kind of moments were like, like, I think this is it. If I was waiting for anything, then probably this is the moment that I should take the chance and just give this a try. And one of the thoughts that I always had in the back of my mind, if the thoughts would creep up like Am I ready for this, what is going to happen would be whatever happens, you can always go back and like there will always be legal work and that you know those skills you have and then they will not vanish. So that really helped me to say like, Okay, I'm gonna take this step.

Andy Follows: 1:19:35

And so what did the step look like? You left TripActions You had this position as a co founder. What was that organisation?

Rachel Wolff: 1:19:43

Yeah, so what happened was I left TripActions And then I was joining a startup, but it was all so the way I was looking at it's like, it's like a probation period for myself to see if we establish the right relationship if we can work together. And for me, it was really quickly in a month and a half that I learned that this was probably not the right fit for me. And again, I gave myself two weeks to really think about this, like, Am I seeing it from from the right side and lessons that I've learned over time at Uber and things that I find important in the way I work, things that I value, I didn't I couldn't find all of them. So for me, that was the moment that I said, like, I'm not going to continue joining the startup, as a co founder. I'm going to try to do this on my own and build from scratch.

Andy Follows: 1:20:44

Yeah, you knew enough about yourself at this stage to know that this isn't going to work? Yeah. So tell us about that. And what you're doing now.

Rachel Wolff: 1:20:53

So for me when I this was this in the health and wellbeing space. And I knew what I wanted to achieve but I also knew that I needed somebody that is on the technical side that can actually build stuff. So I joined a programme, which is called [name]. So what they're doing is they bring different founders from different backgrounds and domain expertise, technical expertise together. And then they you want to create teams of people that want to work together on the same idea with domain expertise, the technical expertise, so I went through that programme. Last year, that's where I met my co founder. And it was very clear for me, the problem area that I wanted to work in was in workplace well being in particular, in on the physical side of it, because like I already mentioned, I'm doing lots of training myself. CrossFitting also still a crossfit coach. And I saw a lot of challenges that people have from too long from sitting too much. And also with my clients that I coached, I saw the struggles of how do you integrate kind of health and well being physical movement into the work day. So I saw that I identified a problem, but I also saw opportunities to be able to support these people. But again, new to the entrepreneurial journey don't have the technical skills to build something. So I'm joined the programme last year. [name] is where I met my co founder. And together we both were excited about the ideas that we're coming up with and and also the problems that we identified and how we can help and have a positive impact on people. Because, again, I think this goes back to how can you help people and what I've learned when I was coaching people was that it is so amazing, if you coach someone for, let's say 10 weeks, and you work together towards a goal, and you can support this person. And after a certain period of time this person change, they see things to happening, steps that they always struggled with, it's still the best thing. That's also why I really, I cannot say goodbye to my CrossFit coaching job, I still do it four hours a week, because seeing people doing a first box jump, because they are afraid to jumping on the box or doing certain things that are super out of their comfort zone and the smile and just the belief that they have in themselves, like I'm able to do this. It's this, it's just an amazing experience to be part of giving this to people. So I hope I can coach for the rest of my life because it's really something that that's rewarding for me as a person. And with that in mind, I thought okay, what if I can, you know, do this at scale, in a way support people at scale with with some sort of technical solution. So that's how we came onto the concept, which is called Movebite. So our startup with Movebite our aim is to bring movement into the workday but really make it we joke about it but we make say we want to make it as normal as drinking coffee because nobody will ask you what are you doing? You're drinking coffee. So why don't we make more movement into the workday normal because I think I believe the workplace is time of day where we spend a lot of hours and this is a great opportunity to do the things that help our body and help us support our body. And if I say this, I'm not talking about let's you know, put a barbell next to your desk and do some heavy deadlifts or put a kettlebell next to you and do some kettlebell swings. I'm talking about really easy stretches and movements changing posture from sitting to standing short walks that can benefit your body but also your what I call always the kind of the brains Yeah,

Andy Follows: 1:24:56

I love the name Movebite, So bite sized pieces of movements in the day. I love that you're back to helping people, which we first noticed when you watch the lawyer helping your mum. And whether you've moved away or closer to it, it's always been your compass. If you like going through your career journey, there's been this, oh, hang on in this role, I'm helping more people. And now you're taking that even further, and trying to help as many people as you can by scaling this with so what is such an important field for humanity. And when you say it, I'm sitting here thinking, Oh, my goodness, this is so obvious. We spend hours and hours and hours in the office. And if you did get up, even if you've got up and stretched, people would look at you like, Oh, that's a bit odd. So we've got to remove that stigma. and it's always easier, I think, rather than relying on willpower, it's always easier to put in place strategies that bring the right habits into your day. So if you can make the office an environment where people routinely do things that are good for them, over time will be unrecognisable. So wonderful. Congratulations. And thank you for sharing with me the journey, you know, the whole journey of how you've come to make this difficult decision, but one that you needed to make and to set up the business. So is there anything I haven't asked you, Rachel that you'd like to add? It sounds like you've found your purpose, and

Rachel Wolff: 1:26:26

No, I think we touched upon a lot. If I now look back over the last, let's say 20 years of going to the university, and then throughout my career is the little voice that I heard in the second year of my law school that was saying you're living your purpose through this work. I've loved like, hey, health and well being it's, we're far fast forward, 20 years later, and this is where I am now. I think maybe something this conversation. Thank you so much, Rachel. It's been that I'd like to share is these voices and these feelings that we're having. So every time I step into a gym, I get super wonderful to meet you. happy. This is really something that I can just feel in my whole body. I think it's something that we should really pay more Thank you, Andy. attention to. Because I truly think that these things tell us stuff. So if you have any younger listeners that are at this point where they feel like hey, there's something that's diff completely different field than what I'm studying what I'm doing now is, yeah, have this dialogue with yourself and to understand why is this thing attracting me? Like why do I have a pull towards something and realising that, yeah, I think you're never too old to create something that you like to do. And I can remember Andy, when you and I had our first meeting that you said that you're creating your day, and I hope I'm saying this correctly, you are creating your day and doing all the things that you enjoy doing. And I could really relate to like, Yeah, this is what I'm trying to do now as well doing things that I enjoy that have an impact. And yeah, at the end of the day, when I close my laptop and call it a workday, I can be like, Okay, I've done something that makes me happy, and it's good for myself. It's good for the rest of humanity.

Andy Follows: 1:28:33

You've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me, Andy Follows. Depending on your unique life experience, where you find yourself right now and your personal goals, you'll have your own takeaways from Rachel's story. Some elements that stood out for me were that her first awareness of a lawyer was someone who helped her mother during the divorce, that she was having second thoughts halfway through University because of her obvious interest in health and well being. But realising that she needed to complete her studies, she was happy to move to Mexx even though she knew that it was in challenging financial circumstances, she decided that it was still a risk worth taking and found she enjoyed the work and the exposure to different people and topics. I appreciated her talking about the importance of culture, and people feeling safe to be themselves and not afraid to ask questions, that she took a step back and looked at her requirements holistically, giving due consideration and respect to sleep, nutrition and exercise as well as work her stepfather being diagnosed with ALS and that making her think about how she could best be able to support her mother and also reminded her of her own mortality. And finally, the investment she's made in coaching and in further educating herself about the field she's moved into before taking the step into founding her own business. If you'd like to connect with Rachel, you'll find her contact details in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead parent or mentor or perhaps a friend of yours who you think would also enjoy listening. Thank you to Rachel for joining me for our conversation. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode, ASKE Consulting and Aquilae. And thank you to the CAREER-VIEW MIRROR team without whom we wouldn't be able to share our guests life and career stories. And above all, thank you to you for listening