Julian Humphreys: Learning to knead then needing to learn with an auto finance industry veteran and co-founder of Maxxia and MOTOM.

Julian is co-founder and CEO of MOTOM, a new technology company servicing the vehicle remarketing sector in the UK.  MOTOM is a joint venture with Flipacar of Australia and with support from three close colleagues, Julian successfully launched the business earlier this year. 

He has a proven track record in the automotive, automotive finance and asset finance sectors, both in the UK and Europe but, as a school leaver, he decided to start his career in baking. 

At the age of 18 he began a 3-year spell learning professional b2b sales in the office equipment sector before his interest in cars led him to join Cowie Interleasing.  

He found early success in both new business and account management roles before becoming the youngest sales manager in the business at the age of 28 and building a high performing team. In 1999 the business was sold to GMAC where Julian enjoyed success in growing the business as head of sales to then take on the role of Managing Director, private label operations in 2005. In 2007 he complemented the MD role with the role of European sales development director.  

He left GM 2009, when they filed for bankruptcy protection and closed a number of businesses across Europe. 

He started an advisory business in 2010 and worked with a number of the world’s leading automotive brands. 

In 2013, Julian and a number of ex-colleagues co-founded Maxxia, an asset and vehicle finance business as a joint venture with MMS of Australia. For a time, Maxxia was the fastest growing asset finance business in the UK, scaling from zero originations to £600m per annum in 5 years. In December 2020, he and his co-founding colleagues sold their 50% shareholding to MMS and finally left the business in March 2021.  

In our conversation we talk about his preference for learning by doing, those 3am starts at the bakery and the gradual discovery of his career path during those early years leading to a successful corporate career with GM and successful exit from the startup he co founded. We discuss the impact of professional sales training on his skills development, confidence and business results and how he made the transition from high performing contributor to leading a team of his peers. 

I found Julian easy to talk to and had fun exploring his story. I’m pleased to be able to share it with you and hope that you find it inspiring.  

If you enjoy listening to my guests career stories, please follow CAREER-VIEW MIRROR in your podcast app.  

You can contact Julian via LinkedIn or at MOTOM 

Why not follow us on Instagram @careerviewmirror where you can see a directory of all our episodes and comment on those you have enjoyed. 

This episode of Career-view Mirror is brought to you by Aquilae.  

Aquilae's mission is to enable Fulfilling Performance in the auto finance and mobility industry, internationally. Adopting our Fulfilling Performance Paradigm helps you identify what steps you need to take to enable Fulfilling Performance for yourself, your team and your business. Contact cvm@aquilae.co.uk for a no obligation conversation about your situation. 

Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk 

Episode recorded on 29 July 2022 

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, family and school
• 10:13 First job after school as a baker
• 12:21 Salesman for Canon
• 19:17 Desire to get into the vehicle leasing space leads to a job with Cowie Interleasing
• 23:40 Transitioning from team member to manager
• 27:32 Brief period in the tech industry before becoming General Manager of Sales for Arriva Automotive Systems
• 36:09 From General Manager to Managing Director to Europoean Sales Development Director
• 40:13 Leaving GMAC and setting up his own consulting and advisoy business plus a joint business in asset finance
• 46:30 Successful sale of the business and the creation of MOTOM
• 58:52 Wrapping up and takeaways

Transcript

Julian Humphreys: 0:00

My first day on the job, my sales director said to me, you're going to need one of these and he gave me a roller deck. And he said, don't think your job is about selling. Your job is about filling up that roller deck.

Andy: 0:14

Welcome to Career-view Mirror, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers so far, sharing insights to help you with your own journey. I'm your host Andy Follows. Julian Humphreys listeners. Julian is co founder and CEO of MOTON, a new technology company servicing the vehicle remarketing sector in the UK. MOTON is a joint venture with Flipper Car of Australia and with support from three close colleagues Julian successfully launched the business earlier this year. He has a proven track record in the automotive, automotive finance and asset finance sectors, both in the UK and Europe. But as a school leaver, he decided to start his career in baking. At the age of 18, he began a three year spell learning professional b2b sales in the office equipment sector, before his interest in cars led him to join Cowey Interleasing. He found early success in both new business and account management roles, before becoming the youngest sales manager in the business at the age of 28, and building a high performing team. In 1999, the business was sold to GMAC, where Julian enjoyed success growing the business as head of sales to then take on the role of managing director private label operations in 2005. In 2007, he complimented the MD role with the role of European sales development director. He left GM in 2009 when they filed for bankruptcy protection and closed a number of businesses across Europe. He started an advisory business in 2010 and worked with a number of the world's leading automotive brands. In 2013 Julian and a number of ex colleagues co founded Maxxia, an asset and vehicle finance business as a joint venture with MMS of Australia. For a time Maxxia was the fastest growing asset finance business in the UK scaling from zero originations to 600 million pounds per annum in five years. In December 2020 he and his co founding colleagues sold their 50% shareholding to MMS and finally left the business in March 2021. In our conversation, we talk about his preference for learning by doing, those 3am starts at the bakery, and the gradual discovery of his career path during those early years leading to a successful corporate career with GM and successful exit from the startup he co founded. We discuss the impact of professional sales training on his skills, development, confidence and business results, and how he made the transition from high performing contributor to leading a team of his peers. I found Julian easy to talk to and had fun exploring his story, I'm pleased to be able to share it with you and hope that you find it inspiring. If you enjoy listening to my guests' career stories, please follow Career-view Mirror in your podcast app.

Aquilae Academy: 3:20

This episode of Career-view Mirror is brought to you by the Aquilae Academy. At the Academy we turn individual development into a team sport. We bring together small groups of leaders from non competing organisations to form their very own academy team. We build strong connection between team members and create a great environment for sharing and learning. We introduce the team to content that can help them tackle their current challenges. And we hold them accountable to take the actions that they decide are their priorities. We say we hold our team members feet to the fire of their best intentions. We do this internationally with teams across the world. If you'd like to learn more about the academy, go to www.aquilae.co.uk.

Andy: 4:05

Hello, Julian, and welcome. Where are you coming to us from today?

Julian Humphreys: 4:10

Yeah, hi, Andy. Great to be here. I'm joining you from a village in Hertfordshire in the UK. It's a village called Watton at Stone. Not many people know it, if you put a pin right in the centre of London and drew a line immediately north 25 miles you land on my village.

Andy: 4:29

Right. Lovely. Thanks for that. Really good to have you with me today. very keen to hear your story. Let's go to the very beginning. Where did it start? Where were you born? And where did you grow up?

Julian Humphreys: 4:41

So I was born actually not far from where I live now interesting enough in in a place called Broxbourne in Hertfordshire, which is about 25 Maybe 30 minutes from where I am now. So I was born at home which is quite rare rather than born in hospital.

Andy: 5:00

Was that intended? Or did you just come a bit early or something?

Julian Humphreys: 5:05

No, I was. I was forecast to be born on the 10th of February. And I arrived at 10 past 10 on the 10th. So

Andy: 5:13

That is very prompt of you.

Julian Humphreys: 5:14

So kind of class myself as Britain's most punctual baby. But yeah, so born at home in Broxbourne, my parents moved when I'd just turned two. And they moved to a place called Ware, also in Hertfordshire, which is about 20 minutes from where I am now. And I grew up in Ware, went to school there. And then I left my parents home at the age of just under 19.

Andy: 5:44

Right. Well, let's talk a little bit about so you definitely grown up in that area. Did you have any brothers and sisters? Or do you have any brothers and sisters?

Julian Humphreys: 5:51

Yeah, so but both older than me, sister who's 14 years older than me, a brother who's three years older than me,

Andy: 5:59

OK that's quite a big gap, I've got a brother who's 14 years younger than me. So and there's just the two of us quite a big gap there. So you were the that you were the third coming along? Did that mean your parents had kind of got their parenting all sorted by then? And they were quite chilled and let you just get on with things? Or how did that pan out?

Julian Humphreys: 6:18

Yeah, I guess so. But my sister got married relatively young. So I didn't grow up in the house when my sister was around. I didn't really remember that time. So it was always me and my brother. And I remember hand me downs, particularly football boots, and rugby boots, that sort of stuff. But you know, I think my parents had, you know, got in reasonable shape by the time I grew up, and I had a very nice upbringing. It was a quiet family. My parents got on particularly well, they'd just passed their 70th wedding anniversary.

Andy: 6:53

Oh, wow.

Julian Humphreys: 6:54

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, nice environment to grow up, you know, I went from day to day loving my brother and hating him, you know, that sort of that sort of relationship. And I think I learned to fight fighting my brother because his toy cars were better than mine.

Andy: 7:09

Right. Right. So he was three years older than you so a bit closer, that that makes sense, that bit of sibling rivalry going on there. And I always ask my guests as well. I'm curious what jobs they had visibility of when they were growing up? Because these things seem to sometimes influence what people do and, and so what did you see your parents doing workwise?

Julian Humphreys: 7:33

my, my father was a furniture designer and cabinet maker so very creative, but not no entrepreneurial bone in his body really which is quite interesting. But yeah, very creative

Andy: 7:49

A craftsman, a craftsman then who loved what he was doing, presumably?

Julian Humphreys: 7:52

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, workshop in the garden, that type of stuff. So he'd make furniture and make his own furniture. We had, you know, we had a lot of one offs in our house that he'd made. So quite an interesting place to be, and yeah, very creative. My mother had a number of roles. And I remember in the 70s, my dad went on to a three day week, you know, things were pretty tight at the time and mum had to hold down three or four jobs. She was a dinner lady at a school, she cleaned an office up the road and those sort of jobs you know, those part time jobs that she could fit in around being a mother, so that sticks in my mind that my mother was a grafter you know, if it was required she'd graft to look after the family. So interesting trait to have and to observe really

Andy: 8:37

Yeah, absolutely. You're spot on with why I ask these questions. So thank you very much for sharing that. You said you had a happy childhood. Does that mean school days were happy? How were you as a student?

Julian Humphreys: 8:48

I'm not particularly academic. I learn through doing rather than reading or traditional education. Yes, school was school was okay. I was a very quiet lad, actually, you know, very, very shy, very quiet. Didn't really like speaking in front of a classroom. You know, when you had to get up and read a paragraph, I always felt really conscious about that stuff. So yeah, really shy and retiring as a lad. But some fond memories of school.

Andy: 9:18

You mentioned rugby boots and football boats. Was sport play a part. Did that play a part in your school days?

Julian Humphreys: 9:24

Yeah, I was never never really a rugby fan. But a football fan and played for the school team tried to get into a regional team but was never good enough to get into a regional team. So the school team was about as far as I made it until about the age of the age of 14.

Andy: 9:42

Okay, so thanks for sharing that about school. As you started to come towards the end of school, how clear were you about what you wanted to do?

Julian Humphreys: 9:51

Not clear at all. I I didn't have a vision of this is what I wanted to do. I didn't necessarily have a vision of This is what I wanted to morph into. I didn't have that clear in my mind at all.

Andy: 10:05

So what happened? What were the steps? What were you following? What what did you stumble into if your like without having a clear vision?

Julian Humphreys: 10:11

Well, yeah, I stumbled into my early job when

Andy: 10:12

So that's 16 years old. I left school and I didn't go to further education, I left after fifth form, as it was called at the time, which was post O level.

Julian Humphreys: 10:26

That's right. Yeah. And I joined a baker's and became a baker and confectioner.

Andy: 10:30

Okay, that's, that's quite a way away from where you are now and the route you took, do you remember quite how you found yourself in a bakers

Julian Humphreys: 10:40

one of one of our neighbours in the street, we lived had a bakers and shop. And when I was leaving school, he asked me whether I'd be interested in baking as a career. And at the time, I hadn't necessarily mapped out what I wanted to do. And I thought that could be really interesting. I could be creative. I could help build something I could do something I was interested in because I like donuts

Andy: 11:05

I was gonna say you have a little bit the look of Paul Hollywood, but

Julian Humphreys: 11:14

I was gonna say over the past few years, I've had people rib me about that. Yeah.

Andy: 11:18

Okay. Okay. Well, that was unprompted. Some of our international listeners might have to Google Paul Hollywood and the Great British Bake Off. So I like that idea, you thought I could be creative. What was the reality when you got there? How was it?

Julian Humphreys: 11:35

The reality was great fun. That's, that's the first thing I really enjoyed the work. Learning was great fun, you know, learning was doing rather than, you know, learning through academia. So that was good for me.

Andy: 11:47

So work was actually more fun than studying once you got into the workplace.

Julian Humphreys: 11:51

Absolutely. Yeah. The challenge was the very early mornings, you're four o'clock on a regular morning, but you're two and three o'clock on a Friday and Saturday morning. So, you know, as a 16, 17 year old kid is not great. No, not great. And that was the side of the role that I didn't particularly enjoy.

Andy: 12:11

And how long did you stick at it?

Julian Humphreys: 12:12

Three years

Andy: 12:13

Right? And what was it that caused you to move on from there? And what happened?

Julian Humphreys: 12:20

Yes, so a friend of mine had got a job working for a Canon dealer selling capital equipment. And he had turned up at my house with his new company car and telling me how great his new job was, and all that kind of stuff. And I looked at my friend, Mark, and I thought, if you could do that, I could probably do that. So I talked more to him about it. And he said that there was another role. So he introduced me to to his boss and I go and have a chat with his boss and see what happened. So they were a Canon dealer selling photo copiers and fax machines, and actually it was right at the end of telex machines. So fax machines were just being launched in the market. So I went and met met his boss, and they said they'd got a position. And we had a brief chat. And they invited me back for a formal interview. And I remember the interview, so two owners of the business, they both they both grilled me for a bit. And, you know, as I said, at school, I was pretty shy, but not unintelligent, if that makes sense. But I hadn't, I hadn't necessarily, through my baking role, kind of grown up into a man, I was still a boy, really. And these two guys gave me a bit of a grilling and I was, I thought to myself, is this what life's like in business? You know, this seems a little unfair. And they they asked me to step outside, and they said, We want you to take 10 minutes and sit outside. And we want you to come back in and sell us something. So I'm thinking to myself, this is really quite difficult. I've never sold anything in my life. And you know, I'm not really sure what to do. So I sat out in reception, and I'm stewing a bit actually and thinking, I really don't know what to do. So I went into their office and knocked on the door. I'm sorry, I asked the Secretary, if I could go back in. She knocked on the door and said could I go back in and I left with their telephone. I unplugged the telephone out the wall. And I then said to the secretary, when I go back in, could you after about 10 seconds after I've been in? Could you knock on the door and say you've got a telephone call for Derek. So I went back in and they said, right, sit down, what are you going to sell us? So at that point, the Secretary knocks the door and says, Derek, I've got a really important phone call. So Derek says we'll put you put it through and I went, you need one of these, don't you Derek? And I've got the telephone in my hand, it was at that point, both of them roared with laughter. And they said, You're such a raw talent. We can see something in you and it's really interesting the way you went about the telephone thing, we don't want to interview you anymore. We just want to offer you a job.

Andy: 15:04

Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. That's brilliant, brilliant story well done. Because that's one of those classic interview questions, isn't it that you hear about, you know, sell me and it's just makes your heart sink sort of thing. But anyway, you nailed it.

Julian Humphreys: 15:19

Yeah, not being in that environment before Andy you know, you go, I'm really not sure what to do. But something clicked in my mind and it worked and

Andy: 15:29

creativity, creativity in those 10 minutes outside, you thought, hang on, here's an idea.

Julian Humphreys: 15:35

Yeah, so yeah, it worked. And I think, you know, my time selling fax machines and photo copiers, walking in the streets, cold calling, basically, and having a roller deck. And my first day on the job, my sales director said to me, you're going to need one of these. And he gave me a roller deck. And he said, don't think your job's about selling, your job is about filling up that roller deck. So that taught me very early on that actually business connections are the thing you need, and information is the thing you need to be successful. So as I say, my role was about filling that roller deck with contacts, when they might be in the market, what they might be looking for all of that sort of thing.

Andy: 16:18

That is such wisdom that he gave you there, because that what that immediately does, is makes the job doable, achievable, non threatening, it takes away the ridiculous expectation that your job is to go out there and sell somebody something off the bat, if you like, I think that is very good advice, I've not heard of anybody do that before. So

Julian Humphreys: 16:43

Yeah, the modern equivalent of it is a CRM system, I guess.

Andy: 16:47

But it's the psychology as well of taking the pressure off you that you've got to go and collect names and details and when they're going to change and what their requirements are, just qualify them, isn't it really?

Julian Humphreys: 16:59

Absolutely, yeah. So that was what the role was about. And clearly the role was about creating revenue. That was the reality of it. But what I learned, I started to learn business, I started to learn what made people tick. And I started to grow up whether I became a man or not, I'm not sure, I think I probably did in that, you know, three years in that environment. And the interesting thing is, I got quite a lot of training and you know, significant investment in me as an individual.

Andy: 17:30

How did that come about? What did they do?

Julian Humphreys: 17:33

First off, I was on a course, which was run by Canon so I was on a residential course for a week. That was my, after three days, I think, I went on the residential course and I've never been away and studied for a week. So that was quite interesting in itself, and there's a lot of role plays a lot of presentations in that environment. So, you know, being quite shy I found that quite difficult, but actually, at the end of the week, found it a bit easier. And then, trying to

Andy: 18:00

You said you learn by doing Sorry Julian you learn and think so they were giving you an opportunity to do it weren't they, that role play?

Julian Humphreys: 18:06

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely.

Andy: 18:08

Okay. So there you were, going out there, 19 years old, 20 years old, to businesses selling fax machines and copiers. And how did that develop for you? What happened next from there?

Julian Humphreys: 18:24

So it was three years well spent. As I say the training helped me understand business helped me understand professional selling, and actually helped me grow up probably I think that's that's what I look back and I had a fun time. Unfortunately, the industry, my kind of of last six months in it, kind of got a little bit tainted, photocopiers were starting to be sold on a cost per copy basis. So we would sell photocopiers mainly on leases. So you know, someone would pay a business would pay quarterly for a lease on a photocopier. And then there was a business that started a cost per copy, a sales age kind of approach. And there was a number of poor, unethical stories kicking around the market and the market got a little bit of a tainted name. And I didn't want to be associated with that. So I decided that I wanted to move industry and I had a love for cars. And I kind of decided at the time I want to get into the vehicle leasing space. So I contacted a couple of recruiters and said look, this is a space I want to get into. And I joined back end of 1990 I joined the business that was known as Cowie Interleasing which was a member of the Cowie Group, the motor group and this was their leasing arm. So I think was October 19. I joined that business.

Andy: 19:47

Right. So very deliberate reasons and shows signs of you being a sort of decent young chap ethical, brought up in a nice family knew right from wrong and didn't like to be associated with some of the practices that were being talked about in the industry. So that proactive step of thinking, Well, I like cars, and I like, you know, proven I can sell. I'll see if I can get myself a position in that industry. And you did. So what did that bring you? Was that was that an easy transition? Or talk us through that?

Julian Humphreys: 20:19

Yeah, it was easy that, you know, it was a business to business selling environment.

Andy: 20:25

Yeah, that was common.

Julian Humphreys: 20:26

Yeah. And actually, the concept of your job is to fill a roller deck, I think that stood me in good stead. So I was very tuned into that, that, you know, I was given my patch. And that was Hertfordshire and a bit of London. And I think, I think a bit of Bedfordshire as well at the time. And, you know, so my job was to understand what businesses were in that territory, and how could I help them. So that kind of fill up the roller deck mentality, I think really helped and become quite successful in that. So from 1990 to 93, I was in a pure new business role. The company then bought, they made two acquisitions in 93, they bought the book of Roy Scott Drive, and the book of Citroen Contracts. And what they wanted to do was grow out those portfolios. So they bought, they bought them with growth in mind, technically bought the names. And what they asked me to do, and one other individual in the organisation was to take over those portfolios and grow them from what they were into real kind of interleasing customers, because what you had in both of those portfolios, you had businesses, maybe running 50, 60 cars, and they had one or two cars with Roy Scott Drive or Citroen Contracts. So the role was about how do we get our services into those organisations and get a better attach rate of our services? And rather than just fund one or two cars fund kind of 50, 60 cars?

Andy: 21:55

Yeah, no, that sounds like a really sensible strategy. And yeah, looking back now on your younger self, what was it that helped you to be successful in that role?

Julian Humphreys: 22:08

I think there's a couple of things. One I grew into from someone who was very shy I grew into someone who was really confident, to the extent where, on occasion, I was overconfident. Which, you know, there's a couple of things in my mind that, you know, with a bit of maturity on your side, you probably would have made some different decisions, you know, business decisions with clients. But I think that my focused behaviour, and as I say, my confidence probably helped me a lot, which was a real contrast to being a very shy lad.

Andy: 22:39

Yeah. Now, confidence is so valuable and elusive, and intangible, if you like, what made you more confident? How did your confidence develop do you think?

Julian Humphreys: 22:48

I think from, you know, I go back to the the investment in training that was made in me by Canon, and then made in me by Interleasing and Interleasing in my time, you know, invested heavily in me as an individual. And they had some great sales trainers, who to this day resonate with me, they have positively affected my career.

Andy: 23:11

Yeah, fantastic. So you can trace back to training you had then tangible outcomes results that have you benefited from Yeah, it's music to the ears of me and some of my other listeners as well, who are very passionate about developing people. That idea that, of course, if you give people the opportunity to do things, teach them to do new things, get them to practice new things, then they're going to grow in confidence, because they're going to realise I can do this now. Yeah.

Julian Humphreys: 23:40

And in 1996, I took a management role. So I was managing a region within the business. So I had, so I was working in a team of eight. And then I become the manager of that team.

Andy: 23:53

That's always a challenging one. When you step up from a team of your peers and become the manager, how did it go?

Julian Humphreys: 24:00

Yeah, so my boss at the time says to me, you've got to walk across the bridge. That's the important thing. And those words, I can still hear today, you got to walk across the bridge, an interesting analogy, really, I think that because I was successful as part of the team. I think I was respected. So that helped a lot. So I think it made the transition easy. But the most difficult piece was where you've got not bring people into line, but have a word occasionally, where you know, they could do some stuff better. So that that was the tough part of the job. The easy part of the job was the building a nice team environment and getting everybody with the same energy levels. Yeah, the tough the tough bit was when you needed to sit down and have a word with someone. That's what I found immediately. But again, the business invested a lot of training time in me and turned me into a manager that allowed me to walk the bridge,

Andy: 24:55

and you're still quite young at that point. I'm guessing mid 20's

Julian Humphreys: 25:01

Yeah. 27. So So I think I was the youngest. I was the youngest sales manager in the Interleasing organisation, the youngest ever I think, definitely the youngest at the time. So my peer group were kind of mid 30s?

Andy: 25:15

So another interesting question is transitioning from being a good individual producer. So you, you are good at the job making that transition into being a leader. He told you, you needed to cross the bridge. But do you remember much about how else you made that transition, training as well to help you, they gave you training at the time?

Julian Humphreys: 25:38

Absolutely. And I read a few books, I read a few books on leadership, which was quite interesting, because being someone who learns through doing, forcing yourself to sit down and read, that's a difficult thing in itself. But yeah, I've got some really good tips from a couple of books, got some really good tips out of a number of training courses, which I did, which helped that transition, and I haven't looked back since those days,

Andy: 26:01

I was going to mention that, you know, the books, the fact, because you had said you didn't particularly enjoy reading. I love that. I love when something becomes important enough for us. Or Interesting enough, we find something that we care about enough to think actually, I'm going to read about this because I want to know,

Julian Humphreys: 26:19

yeah, and I found the infield coaching piece and the infield support, really easy for the team. It was the other stuff. It was the sitting down one to ones every month where someone was good at some things and not so good at others. And it was the how do you get that stuff on the table? How'd you deal with it?

Andy: 26:41

Okay, and what would you say now to someone in that position or to your younger self? If you could go back now that presumably you've cracked that one?

Julian Humphreys: 26:49

Yeah, I think there's opportunities to learn for everybody. And actually, when coaching and developing a team, they've got to feel inspired. So it doesn't need to be sergeant major-ish. But actually, it was about developing those individuals saying You're really good. What would make you even better if you did these things different. And it's just a different mentality and a different tone of voice and a different language.

Andy: 27:15

It's just that paradigm of what your role is, if you believe it's to develop people, then you're going to approach those conversations in a certain way that will be supportive of them and still find the way to to get the improvements. Yeah, so that was Cowie Interleasing.

Julian Humphreys: 27:30

Yeah. So Cowie Intereasing. In 1997, I decided to leave I joined a tech company, a pre IPO tech business, and managing the UK and Ireland sales channel. And I always had this eye on the tech industry, then saw the tech industry as kind of the place to be there's no disrespect to the vehicle leasing industry, because, you know, it was it was where I learned but there was always part of me that said, I think I might want to be in the tech business at some point. So I joined pre IPO, tech business, that very niche organisation that that actually, after nine months of working with them got bought by a German software house, so the IPO was off the table. And the IPO, for me was an opportunity to have some skin in the game and get an outcome where I had some ownership in the organisation. But after the acquisition from the German software company, that IPO was off the table. And actually the influence by the mother company completely changed that organisation. So I realised that wasn't the place for me. And I got invited back to Interleasing. They'd reorganised when I'd left they've gone through a brand re change so Cowie had become Arriva in the market. So what was Cowie Interleasing became Arriva Automotive Solutions, they'd reorganised, wanted a general manager of sales, and were out to recruit on it and said that they'd very much like me to be involved in that recruitment process as one of two one to three on the shortlist. So I joined that process and lucky enough, you know, thankfully, I've got the position.

Andy: 29:14

That's let me just jump in if I may, because a that's always great when you get invited back to somewhere, or you get invited by one of your previous bosses to join them again in another endeavour. I'm curious though, about this entrepreneurial desire this idea of you wanted to have skin in the game you wanted to do the IPA. I mean, the technology, wanting to be in the tech company at that time because we're sort of I'm guessing we're similar age and I can remember also there was a lot of talk about tech in those days and it was all year 2000 It was just before that Y2K and and but all the big bucks were being made in you know the jobs with the big salaries in the Sunday Times. Because you still had to look in the paper for your job opportunities then they were the the tech jobs, weren't they or IT jobs as it was called back in the day. So you didn't come from a particularly entrepreneurial family, you said your dad wasn't entrepreneurial. So some spark in you said, I want to take risk. I want to join this pre IPO startup because I want to have skin in the game. Any idea where that comes from? Is that just do you think that's just innate sort of thing that you were born with? Or what's going on there?

Julian Humphreys: 30:29

Yeah, I don't know. Don't they say that your're only born with one behaviour and one fear and that's the fear of falling as a baby. And everything else you're infected with along the way?

Andy: 30:42

That's interesting.

Julian Humphreys: 30:43

Yeah. There's a book on it. Behavioural Sciences.

Andy: 30:48

Right. Okay. Well, that sounds very, I'm just curious. Because, you know, sometimes people I've seen I watched my own dad start businesses. And so I know that was kind of always in my visibility. My field of view was this idea of you could do that. So for reasons outside of your control that project it got acquired, didn't IPO, landscape changed, the environment changed the ambitions of the new owner didn't fit with the plan. So then you fortunately got this opportunity to go back to Interleasing, which was now Arriva. So going back? That's an interesting one going back to a place you've been before. How was that?

Julian Humphreys: 31:31

Yeah, quite interesting. Quite interesting. So I went back, because a new part of the brief was that Arriva, so the Cowie Group that was wanted to dispose of the leasing business. So actually, one of the downsides, I guess, to the organisation that I left was the parent had seen it as a little bit of a cash cow. And actually, there was a little bit of underinvestment. And on the basis, the business was up for sale, I thought Great time to go back, help get a new parent company, potentially, and help get the right parent company. And actually with the right parent company, and the right investment, the right strategy, this business can go somewhere. So that was the attractiveness about it, that I was going back to, albeit the same organisation, but with a slightly different strategy. Yeah. 30. I was at the time, still, you

Andy: 32:20

age. know, in business terms still relatively young. Yeah. So I rejoined the business, as General Manager of sales, helped restructure the organisation helped build some basic disciplines back into the selling organisation. And then, in 1999, the parent had publicly put the organisation on the market, and GMAC, the financial services arm of GM was circling. And were very interested in the organisation and started a due diligence process. And I sat as part of that due diligence team. And, I think, through that process helped the organisation become under the ownership of GMAC. And I think they concluded the transaction October of 99. And then I complimented my leadership, the sales leadership role with leadership of the marketing organisation as well, and breathe three months after the sale, or we got three months to rebrand the organisation. So we resurrected the Interleasing name, and just called the business Interleasing and resurrected that back end of 1999, which, which was quite refreshing for the market. We built the brand. And so GMAC had a GMAC had an international footprint, and wanted to use the Interleasing name across Europe, but couldn't buy the rights to the Interleasing name. So they used Masterlease across Europe. And then we ended up in the UK rebranding the organisation to Masterlease, I think that was early 2001 or 2002, something like that. It's fascinating, especially for me, because you're bringing back names that I remember and I remember going to the Interleasing offices, I think it would have been Interleasing, probably around that time when I was you know, 97 or 99. I was a Rover Corporate Sales person. So that would have been the window of opportunity which would have seen me visiting Interleasing in the Midlands

Julian Humphreys: 34:32

Brindley Wharf in Birmingham. And actually, those brands will probably resonate with some of the listeners I would think

Andy: 34:38

Certainly the UK ones definitely. And you progressed well in that business. I love the story. I love the 16 year old lad three o'clock in the morning in the bakery where you'd have no idea you were going to end up you know, doing due diligence, helping sell that business to GMAC and the progress that you made and also from not being, you know, not having been a particularly keen student. So once once you got into the workplace, you found your way and found what you were interested in and really got stuck in. And would you say you had some ambition?

Julian Humphreys: 35:13

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And ambition to be seen as a great leader. And to help shape an organisation not just shape part of an organisation, but help shape the overall organisation was was was something that was, that was always the driver for the ambition. I think, Andy, you look at organisations and you say, Well, if I was doing that, I'd do it a different way. Now, you know, I'm not suggesting one is right, and one is wrong, or vice versa. But you just do it different. And actually, the more senior you become in an organisation, the more influence you have.

Andy: 35:49

Oh, my goodness, there's a few really wonderful things you've said on this conversation. And that is another one. The more senior you become, the more influence you can have, the more people you can help can't you.

Julian Humphreys: 36:00

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Right.

Andy: 36:02

So I love that picture you're painting, and how senior did you actually get to in that GMAC organisation?

Julian Humphreys: 36:09

Yes, in 2005, I became managing director of the White Label operation. So Masterlease ran the brand of Vauxhall Leasing, and the brand of Saab Contract Hire. So they were kind of distinct business units. So I became MD of both of those brands, 2005 to 2007. And in 2007, I continued that MD role, but also became European Sales Development Director. S o effectively, my role was about managing the organisation within the Masterlease business, but working in collaboration with the GM brands on bringing volume through a channel. So my role was very collaborative with the guys in Vauxhall Saab, and then Chevrolet, we introduced the Chevrolet lease brand in the UK. And then my European role was about working with those equivalent businesses across you know, 27 markets in Europe and about building volume for both businesses.

Andy: 37:10

And did it feel because you were on quite a trajectory at this point with those are senior roles, you're getting a lot of exposure, you've got European exposure, as well, you're you know, heading up an organisation you're facing off to the OEM, as well in the market and did this feel like yeah, this is how it's supposed to be this I'm on track. This is where I'm supposed to be.

Julian Humphreys: 37:32

Yeah, I think there were occasions where I pinched myself.

Andy: 37:36

I was gonna say I don't want to put words in your mouth but did you ever pinch yourself and think oh, well done, Julian what are you doing here?

Julian Humphreys: 37:43

Yeah, there is that, but then there's then there's the leveller, which is you meet your mates for a pre Sunday lunch beer. And they stay in the pub all afternoon and you go home, because you got to pack your suitcase because you're going away for three days in Europe. You know, you're on the first flight out of Heathrow on a Monday morning. That's quite a leveller. And you don't pinch yourself at that point. But you do you do, or I definitely did was pretty proud of what I was able to achieve in that organisation. Yeah, and there was a cultural fit. And I don't know what it was about it, but there seemed a cultural fit, it felt like a pretty natural place to be.

Andy: 38:23

And I'm thinking that you had that very good early years professional sales training from kind of you started out the gate with some quality sales training. So you would have been a, you know, already a professional salesperson with that mindset and would run the business with that in mind. So yeah, okay, so you're on this trajectory it's going really well.

Julian Humphreys: 38:47

Yeah. And and what we didn't know sorry to cut across so. So 1999, when GMAC bought the business to 2009 GM stock went from blue chip to junk status in 10 years. And in 2008, General Motors filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. And that's that's kind of when the wheels fell off. GMAC got bank holding status in America, which meant the business was directed by the Fed. And the Fed didn't want any risk on the balance sheet either residual value risk or maintenance risk. So we ended up having to retract from various markets or close down organisations. So you know, really interesting that over a 10 year period, you build a business and then you get to the crescendo and you have to close it all down. That's a very strange place to be

Andy: 39:40

Yeah. How do you handle that?

Julian Humphreys: 39:43

Yeah, I think fairly pragmatically, you know, it was what it was, you know, no one's fault, victim of circumstance, I suppose. It was the GMAC Mortgage portfolio, which was the problem child, as were the other mortgage portfolios in the US that that was the issue, but you know, it was no one's fault necessarily,

Andy: 39:59

but you were pilling you were just pulling out of markets weren't you, because I was in New Zealand at the time and you were pulling out of Australia and New Zealand, I think.

Julian Humphreys: 40:08

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Which which ended up with me leaving. So 2008, they filed for Chapter 11, I think just before Christmas, and then I stayed in the organisation until Christmas the following year so 2009. And I had a year of pulling out of markets, making sure that we collaborated with partners that, you know, they knew exactly what we were doing and why. And it also gave me a little bit of space to think about what did I want to do and what was I going to do post GMAC. And in 2010, I founded my consulting and advisory business. And that work saw me doing some interesting work for some of the some of the world's leading leasing brands and leading OEMs, which, if you'd said to me 10 years prior, you're going to be working with these brands doing this type of work, I wouldn't necessarily believed you. But yeah, I've done some great work. Part of my consulting business was running professional training programmes, and professional leadership programmes. And I found that part of the job particularly rewarding, again, seeing people grow and develop, you know, probably recognising where I was in the late 80s, early 90s. You know, going through that transition and being helped to grow. Actually putting some of that back into people I think are really, really enjoyed

Andy: 41:31

it, totally understand that and salute you for doing it. How long did you do that? For

Julian Humphreys: 41:38

2012. That was 20, early 2010 back end of well no middle of 2012. Me and two ex colleagues decided that we wanted to start an asset finance origination business so a broking business. So we created a couple of relationships with a couple of banks and started to originate business in the market. And the reason we did it was that if you remember the global financial crisis, post that period, there was a lot of businesses that seemed to distrust banks. And actually, if they were financing business equipment, they almost wanted an impartial view. So they might have dealt with one particular bank for a period of time. But there was this whether there was an absolute distrust, or a I'm not sure kind of distrust, there was a bit of that in the market. So for us to be independent and say we would recommend a rather than b, and these are the reasons why we could enjoy some relationships. And what had also happened is me and my two ex colleagues, were getting calls from organisations going, you know, we need to fund this type of equipment, could you recommend somewhere? So rather than saying, well, we'll recommend our mate John. Rather than doing that, we said, Well, let's start an origination business. And then what was happening in the background, th e interleasing business in which actually the Interleasing name was kept in Australia, the Masterlease name wasn't used, it was kept in Australia. I can't remember the exact reasons why. But that business got sold from GMAC to a company called Macmillan Shakespeare. And we knew that Macmillan Shakespeare had a salary sacrifice product that they call Novated Lease in Australia. And you'll, you'll probably remember this from your days, and the CEO wanted to come to the UK. So we started this asset finance business with a secondary view that says, Let's get an audience with Macmillan Shakespeare. And let's create a structure to bring them to the UK. So in 2013, we started the joint venture with Macmillan Shakespeare under the brand of Maxxia.

Andy: 43:44

So begin with the end in mind, you knew what the plan was?

Julian Humphreys: 43:48

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that joint venture started 2013. And we built from scratch, an organisation that was an asset finance company, and also our fleet business. So we grew from the organic growth and growth by acquisition. So we made five acquisitions over a five year period. And we grew from originating zero to originating 500 million pounds worth of new business a year. So quite quite a success story, it's the fastest growing asset finance company in the country, and quite a success story. We had talked about the salary sacrifice product that had in Australia, we were going to replicate that for the UK, but HMRC changed rules. And you know, it meant that all of our work and all of our product we were building, you know, we had a black swan moment and couldn't launch, but continued to make that business successful. And it was always the case that so actually it's two of my ex colleagues we started the forerunner business to Maxxia. When we started Maxxia we invited another three ex colleagues to join us. So that was six shareholders in the UK, which own 50% and Macmillan Shakespeare owning the other 50. And then the plan was to work with Macmillan Shakespeare in that joint venture for maybe five years and they'd buy our half from us. That would have been about 2018. But actually, that joint venture continued to run until December 2020. We got the businesses successfully through the pandemic issues. And you know, I won't necessarily talk about those because all of the listeners know it pretty much the same across the globe. I don't think there's any region in the UK that's particularly different. So we got those businesses through the pandemic. And then end of 2020, we agreed a transaction with Macmillan Shakespeare of Australia to buy the other 50%.

Andy: 45:40

Congratulations, sounds like a very well done plan.

Julian Humphreys: 45:43

Yeah, it was good. There was, yeah, the business still exists today. But it's quite different Macmillan, Shakespeare have sold a few a few operations, they had a change of strategy. We were a lender, a direct lender on our own balance sheet for the period up to 20 2019. And for all sensible business reasons, Macmillan,Shakespeare no longer wanted to be a lender. So we created a couple of joint ventures with a couple of banks to lend on our paper but leveraging their balance sheets. And that all worked really well until COVID hit. So we had to withdraw from directly lending in the market. We were just broking business through COVID. And it's still it's still brokers business today. But it's quite quite a different business, because it's not not a

Andy: 46:28

So you had a successful exit, which is what direct lender. entrepreneurs are looking for, at some point. Yeah, those that don't want some kind of lifestyle, if you like, but often the goal is to build something up and sell it. And you were part of that. How do you feel that when you did it, you sounded a bit of hesitancy that I might have misrepresented it.

Julian Humphreys: 46:48

Not at all. No, I was just, I was just reflecting on my thinking at the time when you're a member of the leadership team of a successful organisation. And then the day you leave, you don't get any emails, you don't get any phone calls. And actually, that feels like a really strange place really strange place. So that's a bit weird. And actually, I've thought to myself that I'm not sure whether I want to full time role anymore. So I might just detune what I've been doing, and I hate the word semi retire. So I invested in a business early in 21 and became a non Executive Director for them. And in the summer of 21, I joined another board as not executive no investment but become an advisor, a non executive, ones in the tech space. One's a audit firm, which works with the motor vehicle finance sector and the asset finance sector. And I'm still non exec for both of those organisations, and then back end of the summer. So my non exec chairman in the Maxxia business. So he was one of the executives in the McMillan Shakespeare business, who we put the joint venture together with, he invested in an organisation in Australia called Flippa Car, a tech business focused on the remarketing sector. So he reached out to me and said that we've launched this business in Australia, I think they could be a play in the UK market. So back end of the summer 21, I embarked on a research project to understand the sector, who the players are. And what did I find out, I found out that a it's an interesting space, and there's 8 million pre COVID numbers, 8 million huge car transactions a year. So you know, it's a big space, relatively crowded, no one brand really owning the space, they were the kind of things I've learned. So what we ended up doing was agreeing that a form of the Flippa Car proposition once anglicised, and made fit for the UK market might be a great proposition. So we went out with a different piece of research. And the different piece of research included research about the name. From the off I'd said, you know, the Flippa Car name won't work in the in the UK, because it's just too Aussie, right? So we went out with the research and part of the research was about the name and we got 100% of responses saying choose a different name. So then we embarked upon, you know, looking at some names that might fit the market and we landed on most we landed on MOTOM plus three others, and then we researched those brands or those names in the market and we got some interesting response back on the MOTOM name. And that was the favourite. And the reason I think that I have favoured it in the market did is one it's a palindrome, so same word forward as it is backwards. And actually, when you think about businesses, you know, OEMs and dealers trading vehicles, it's it's a backwards and forwards activity. So I think the brand really, really suits the business. So then what it was about was building a team, building a plan with the Australian business to say as a team, we want to create this as a joint venture. This isn't about us working for Flippacar. This is about creating a future nest for ourselves as much as anything. So there's four of us as shareholders in the UK. So myself as CO Chief Commercial Officer, Mel Goodliffe who Mel and I worked together in the Interleasing business in the early 90s. We've known each other for a long time, Lisa Edwards, who's our CFO who I've known for over 20 years, she was our finance director in the Maxxia business, I worked alongside her in GMAC. So that's where that relationship was. And then John John Lightly our CTO became head of IT in the Maxxia business, I think around 18. So John, and I knew each other from the Maxxia organisation, so build a team of high performing individuals who you didn't need to go through the storming phase of the relationship, you know, you can get onto that normaling phase fairly quickly.

Andy: 50:58

How important is it? Or what does it mean to you, Julian working with those people,

Julian Humphreys: 51:05

I think to work with people that you implicitly trust, and you trust their thinking, you trust their judgement, you trust their work ethic goes a long way you don't you don't need to worry about it, you know, you don't need to wake up worrying about you know, has someone gone native, very important that you trust the people in the organisation you work with, and you know, the values of our business are trust, empathy, and openness. So we've all got that behaviour in our makeup. So

Andy: 51:35

and having that solid leadership team of people who've tried and tested if you like, tested the relationships, proven deep trust between you that's going to help you develop the business and grow the business.

Julian Humphreys: 51:48

Absolutely, yeah. So we, we concluded the joint venture with the Australian team, the end of February, we lifted the lid on the brand that something was coming might be their first or second of March. And then we did a soft launch in the market, about four weeks ago.

Andy: 52:07

So listeners, you're hearing this pretty fresh out the oven if we want to use a baking analogy to go.

Julian Humphreys: 52:16

But but another baking analogy, it's not half baked, it's fully baked. Yes.

Andy: 52:22

So just four weeks ago, and what is it that you do? Tell

Julian Humphreys: 52:28

Yeah, so we're a tech organisation, that our us a little bit about what you did? tech platform enables businesses to buy and sell cars and vans between themselves so that our customers would be vehicle manufacturers, leasing companies, rental companies, fleet management companies, dealers, both main dealers, and independent dealers and traders, where they want to buy and sell between themselves. So the Lease Co. for instance, would traditionally sell its vehicles into the dealer sector or to traders, we give them a technology Platform to make that easier, quicker and cheaper than some traditional methods. We're an independent business, we're not owned by one of the dealer groups, or one of the auction houses or something like that. So we're truly independent. And I think that's, that kind of stands us in good stead when we talk to our audience that we don't have a connection with anybody else in the industry. And we've come at this from so a lot of what happened in the COVID pandemic period, was businesses hopped online or put their services online. And they'd created what was the existing process and put it online, where we've come at it and said, Well, what do we think the right process should be? And let's digitalize that correct process. And let's share that. So what we've got is a platform that is part trading platform, part social media platform. So this is about sellers and buyers connecting with each other because they trust each other and want to buy and sell to each other. So there's a social media aspect to what we do. And it's about creating business connections that everyone relies on and is confident in.

Andy: 54:13

It sounds very valuable. It sounds like a helpful application helpful platform for people and I'm taking the approach that you've taken by having that social media side and helping people to get to know each other and buying and selling to people they know and trust takes me back to that original roller deck. Your idea is to, you know, that was the original job you were given. And there's a hint of that in what you're doing in connecting people now to buy and sell from each other.

Julian Humphreys: 54:43

Yeah, and we get the tech to do some of the heavy lifting. So a large vendor today might want to sell a bunch of vehicles, and they could use a number of different routes to sell that bunch of vehicles. But what we're doing through our platform is we're allowing them to To try and pinpoint the buyer. So the buyers put filters in the application, it's a web based application and mobile phone based. So there's an Apple product, and there's an Android product. So what a buyer does is creates filters. So this is the type of vehicles I'm looking for. So as soon as one of those comes on the platform, they get a notification. So it's not quite a one to one marketing relationship. But it's a one to a few, rather than one to many, when, you know, large vendors are disposing of, you know, cars or LCDs.

Andy: 55:32

Yeah, so it's helping the vendors to find the buyers who are in the market for what they're selling. And it's helping buyers find the inventory that they need

Julian Humphreys: 55:42

absolutely, and you know, in inventory is pretty tough to get right now. So are we hitting the market you know, at a sensible time? Probably, we've had really good response from the market so far since the soft launch. And equally we've had some learning. So you know, you don't know what you don't know, until you do you're soft launch. And there's some there's some things we've adjusted, and we've had that flexibility and agility as an organisation to be able to do that.

Andy: 56:07

Yeah. And if I'm interested in joining or getting involved with using the platform, do I have to speak to someone? Or is that something I can do online? I just register and pay some money, and I'm up and running? Or how does it work?

Julian Humphreys: 56:21

Yeah, so the paying some money? No, you don't have to pay us anything to be on the platform. pricing model is that we don't charge anyone to list a vehicle, we don't charge anyone to sell a vehicle. We don't charge a subscription fee to be on the platform, we only charge the buyer a modest fee when they buy a car. That's the whole thing. And so if you wanted to, you know, if you're a dealer or a trader, or a vendor and wanted to get onto the platform, you could go on the Apple store right now, you could download we ask you six pieces of information about your organisation, and you'd be live on the platform.

Andy: 56:57

Brilliant, and there's no barrier to me listing my stock that I want to remarket on there, nothing to stop me doing

Julian Humphreys: 57:04

No, no, equally, if you if you didn't that. want to register through a mobile phone app, there's the desktop app, and you can register through that. But behaviorally, what we found is 50% of our users are wedded to the phone, be it Apple or Android and the other 50% are wedded to the desktop. So us having both is absolutely the right thing.

Andy: 57:29

Sounds very good. Is there anything else about that that you'd like to share? Or have we covered? In a nutshell what it is now?

Julian Humphreys: 57:38

it, they pay lower buyers fees, there's no subscription, no listing fees, then there's a transparent bidding process through the app. And as I said, we're completely independent. And then you start looking at the business and you say, Well, okay, where Next, once we've got some critical mass in the UK, are there some adjacent sectors that we might look at, so we're cars and LCVs today, but equally you go, we could probably lend ourselves to anything with a number plate, so motorbikes leisure, vehicles HGVs. So that's maybe one, one idea of a strategy we've got. And then there's the European market. And we always thought when building this business that it could be broader than just the UK. And there might be a relationship with a partner rather like an OEM that says, We want to work with MOTOM in the UK, and equally we want to work with MOTOM in Europe, and they help us with that segway into Europe. So there are a few things going around the mind to say, what is the future organisation look like? But yeah, it grows into a successful tech business for sure.

Andy: 58:52

I wish you all the very best with that. Julian, it sounds like a great platform and very valuable for the marketplace. So well done on creating that. Is there anything in terms of not moving wider your whole career story that we've shared? Is there anything I haven't asked you? That means I've missed an opportunity of hearing something?

Julian Humphreys: 59:13

Not that immediately springs to mind? I'm just trying to think No, I don't think so.

Andy: 59:19

Okay, that means I've done my job. It's alright. It's not a trick question. I'm not fishing. It's not like oh, you know, Mel told me something.

Julian Humphreys: 59:30

Or we found something on social media. Yeah.

Andy: 59:33

Yeah. No, not not like that at all. It's just a catch all question to make sure we don't leave any gems.

Julian Humphreys: 59:42

No, I don't think I've gilled at the lily and I've done it. I left any gems behind.

Andy: 59:46

Marvellous. Well, in that case, it's been an absolute pleasure to hear your story. Thank you very much for sharing it openly with me, Julian really appreciate that. And as I say, I wish you all the best we'll be keeping an eye on MOTOM and I wish you all the best with it.

Julian Humphreys: 1:00:03

Yeah. And yeah, as I say, products available in the App Store or Google Play. Can't miss that plug Andy so sorry. And yeah, it's been it's been a pleasure to be interviewed by you Andy you've been a great interviewer. And when I get on the Paxman couch I'm sure it's entirely different.

Andy: 1:00:19

Absolutely. This is not prepared you for anything remotely unpleasant. So thanks a lot. Bye bye for now.

Julian Humphreys: 1:00:28

Yeah, thanks, Andy.

Andy: 1:00:33

You've been listening to Career-view Mirror with me, Andy Follows, I hope you found some helpful points to reflect on in Julian's story that can help you with your own career journey, or that of those you lead parent or mentor, you are unique. And during my conversation with Julian, you'll have picked up on topics that resonate with you. A few things I noticed were, like many of us he didn't have a particularly clear vision, driving what to do when leaving school, he found himself in a bakery, which had some positives of being a creative endeavour. But some downsides with 3am starts, seeing a friend driving a new car and enjoying his job brought awareness of sales as a potential career, the interview story where they told him to go outside and come back in in a few minutes and sell us something. That wonderful piece of advice that he was given to build connections and fill your roller deck, the investment of training by Canon and later Interleasing to equip Julian with professional sales skills. And him taking an ethical view to not want to be associated with the copier industry as it was getting a bad reputation. And then him proactively seeking a role in automotive and leveraging the sales experience that he had, and experiencing success then, in leasing sales, and making that jump to leading the team he was part of, and being able to do that, because the team respected his ability to do the role himself, and also him recognising the need to develop some leadership skills at that point and choosing to read some relevant books, even though that wasn't a natural inclination, having the foresight to set up a business knowing who the potential buyer might be, and being sufficiently entrepreneurial to achieve that and grow the business at a very fast rate before negotiating a successful exit, how the initial journey into a tech company didn't work out. But he got another opportunity to do that. Or he got other opportunities to do that, including his latest venture MOTOM. And I look forward very much to hearing how that develops. You can contact Julian via LinkedIn. And we'll put links in the show notes to this episode. We publish these episodes to celebrate my guests careers, listen to their stories and learn from their experiences. And I'm genuinely interested in what resonated with you. And especially if you plan to do something with a learning or an insight that you've taken from Julian's experience. Thank you to all of you for sharing your feedback. Thanks also to Hannah and Julia, who as part of the Career-view Mirror team here at Aquilae work so hard to deliver these episodes to you. This episode of Career-view Mirror is brought to you by Aquilae. Aquilae's mission is to enable fulfilling performance in the mobility industry. We use our very own fulfilling performance paradigm to help you identify what steps you need to take to enable fulfilling performance in your business. Contact me directly. If you'd like to know more, my email is andy@aquilae.co.uk. And remember, folks if you know people who would benefit from hearing these stories, please show them how to find us. Thanks for listening