Nina Hubig: playing to her strengths and overcoming her fears to realise her dream to work in academia.

In this episode we are celebrating the career to date of Nina Hubig.

Nina is an Assistant Professor in the School of Computing at Clemson University, specializing in data science and AI, particularly within the context of biomedical and social network analysis.

She earned her Ph.D. from the Technical University of Munich, where her research focused on developing new data science algorithms.

Nina is actively involved in projects that apply AI and data science, such as the development of a Flood Evacuation Tool designed to assist with flood forecasting and evacuation in South Carolina.

In our conversation we talk about her desire to work in medicine. She knew that she would find it too stressful on the front line and wanted to find a role that played to her strengths. Nina shares her experiences and learnings from spending two years in the corporate world before she realised her dream of a move into academia. She explains the role that fear has played in her life and how she has repeatedly overcome it through willpower.

I enjoyed my conversation with Nina and I'm pleased to have this opportunity to introduce her to you.

If you're listening for the first time, hello, I'm Andy Follows. I'm a trusted advisor to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to enable Fulfilling Performance. If you'd like to know more about Fulfilling Performance, check out: Release the handbrake! - The Fulfilling Performance Hub on Substack.

Connect with Nina
LinkedIn: Nina Hubig
About Nina's work:  (Clemson University, South Carolina) (Clemson News) (Clemson University Calendar).

Thank you to our sponsors:
ASKE Consulting
Email: hello@askeconsulting.co.uk

Aquilae
Email: cvm@aquilae.co.uk

Episode Directory on Instagram @careerviewmirror  

If you enjoy listening to our guests career stories, please follow CAREER-VIEW MIRROR in your podcast app. 

Episode recorded on 30 April, 2024.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and childhood
• 8:53 School and a passion for reading
• 12:20 Strong desire at a young age to get into Academia
• 17:33 Studying Computer Science Diploma at LMU and PhD at TUM
• 26:15 First steps into industry with BMW
• 35:51 Advice to younger self before starting in the corporate world
• 39:43 The importance of the human side of business
• 44:49 Leaving BMW to move into academia at Clemson University, US
• 52:48 Identfying the need to work with people and choosing a less remote position, setting up her own company
• 54:22 Research into transparency and trust with AI
• 56:22 Wrapping Up and Takeaways

Transcript

Nina Hubig: 0:00

And what happened was like he had no fear. Like he was fearless to the cause of the opposite of me. I was fearful. I don't want to have any problem on the social side. I'm afraid maybe we shouldn't talk to them yada yada and he was like, Nah, who cares about hierarchy? Let's first do and then apologise. I was like, Okay,

Aquilae: 0:21

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host, Andy Follows

Andy Follows: 0:53

Hello, listeners, Andy here. Thank you for tuning in. We appreciate that you do. We're also very grateful for our guests who generously joined me to create these episodes so that we can celebrate their careers, listen to their stories and learn from their experiences. In this episode, we're celebrating the career to date of Nina Hubig. Nina is an assistant professor in the School of Computing at Clemson University, specialising in data science and AI, particularly within the context of biomedical and social network analysis. She earned her PhD from the Technical University of Munich, where her research focused on developing new data science algorithms, Nina is actively involved in projects that apply AI and data science such as the development of a flood evacuation tool designed to assist with flood forecasting and evacuation in South Carolina. In our conversation, we talk about her desire to work in medicine, she knew that she would find it too stressful on the front line and wanted to find a role that played to her strengths. Nina shares her experiences and learnings from spending two years in the corporate world. Before she realised her dream of a move into academia. She explains the role that fear has played in her life and how she has repeatedly overcome it through willpower. I enjoyed my conversation with Nina and I'm pleased to have this opportunity to introduce her to you. If you're listening for the first time Hello, I'm Andy Follows I'm a trusted adviser to senior leaders in the automotive industry. I work alongside them and their teams to enable fulfilling performance. If you'd like to know more about fulfilling performance, you can sign up for our weekly newsletter. In it you'll find easily digestible ideas on how to increase levels of performance and fulfilment for yourself, and those you lead and care about. Go to Andyfollows.substack.com, or use the link in the show notes to this episode. Hello, Nina, and welcome and where are you coming to us from today?

Nina Hubig: 2:49

Hi, Andy, nice to be here. I'm right now in Munich, Germany. And I'm living partly in Charleston, the USA, South Carolina. And very happy to meet you.

Andy Follows: 3:03

Thank you. Thank you very much. So first of all, can I ask you Where were you born?

Nina Hubig: 3:08

Oh, well, actually, I'm boringly born in Munich as well. I was born in the centre of Munich. But then I was raised in that tiny suburban area called [name]. And it was basically where I landed on Earth first.

Andy Follows: 3:27

You preempted my question. We don't get to choose where we dropped on the planet. And I'm always fascinated to understand the circumstances for each of my guests. So can you tell me a little bit about that? First of all, your mother and father what what was the situation there? And what did you see them doing the jobs?

Nina Hubig: 3:45

My father was an engineer and economy. So it was a dual study. So he was a diploma masters student. And my mom did do her high school. And then she also turned towards apprenticeship in finance. And together, they had five companies. Wow. They build themselves up from scratch. And I saw them working really hard and by their own with their companies, right. So how to do this how to work with people and being busy.

Andy Follows: 4:25

Yeah, so very busy, hard working, intelligent academic.

Nina Hubig: 4:31

My father was an academic. Yeah, my mom was not, but she said she could be

Andy Follows: 4:36

and entrepreneurial

Nina Hubig: 4:37

Very entrepreneurial. Yes.

Andy Follows: 4:39

And your mother said she could be an academic.

Nina Hubig: 4:41

My mom never doubted herself. She was like, I can do everything.

Andy Follows: 4:45

That's really helpful to know, and have you inherited some of that from her? Do you think?

Nina Hubig: 4:50

Well, what impressed me about my mum was so she came from a very poor family from[name]. [Name] is at that time there was like a lot of industry, coal industry. Like my grandparents, everyone worked in coal and steel, it's on the border to France. So I'm partly French, partly German. And my mom was like, she had to go work when she was 14. So she had to learn to become a hairdresser. She didn't want that. And she picked herself up at 14, did the three years. And while working as a hairdresser, she in the evening went to school to get an intermediate school degree, we call it the [name], middle maturity. And that's one step before high school level. So I don't know the British school system here. That's why I'm saying high school level. So it's a little bit complicated. She had to basically work and then go to school for three or four hours, every day, after eight hours of work. And that happened for the three years during the hairdresser job. But then she changed jobs to the finance did another apprenticeship. And she continued working in the evening, every evening for school, so she got her high school degree.

Andy Follows: 6:14

Right, so she was very motivated to get an education

Nina Hubig: 6:18

Yes, she was very motivated to be educated. And she was very disciplined. Because she said, I'm repeating what she said here. There were people more intelligent than me, but they didn't have the will to persist.

Andy Follows: 6:32

Marvellous. Brilliant lesson already. Excellent. And then your father, what was his background?

Nina Hubig: 6:41

so my father was the opposite. So his father was a department lead at the coal industry. And they were like people, like their two boys had to go to school and then study and do a PhD. Ideally, that would be their optimal outcome. And both kids were like, nah, nah. World is open. PhD is boring. Nah. But they both studied both studied engineering. Also, my father had an extra so he was a wild one in school. So he's got thrown out of school once. But he, but he made it in the end and did his study. So he did well

Andy Follows: 7:24

And what were some of these businesses that they created?

Nina Hubig: 7:27

So they had mainly IT consultancies, despite not knowing much about IT. First of all, they were normally not normal employees, right. And so they had connections, and then they started to build their companies up. Mainly, with freelancers. So it was interesting. For me to observe as my parents are not techie, they are, you know, economy, but not tech. So I had a computer a server when I was five. And my parents were like, you can just use it. I don't mind. I was five years old. I didn't know anything. I just destroyed the thing again, and again, and again.

Andy Follows: 8:05

So when you were when it wasn't destroyed, when it was working, what were you doing on it? What were using it for?

Nina Hubig: 8:11

Oh, I played games, I played Commander Keen and Lemmings and Vikings and stuff like that.

Andy Follows: 8:18

So you had that from an early age. You had exposure to that. Do you have any siblings?

Nina Hubig: 8:24

I don't. So I'm a single child, the only child of my parents, because my father got very sick. When I was two years old, he got multiple sclerosis. And it turned out that under the circumstances, a second child isn't a good idea. He was not very much willing to take care of me as well, which is often the case for hard working parents. So my mom was like, Nah, not another child.

Andy Follows: 8:52

Okay, so what about school? How did your teachers describe you?

Nina Hubig: 8:58

I was quite silent, and calm and a little bit shy. I was a nerd, basically.

Andy Follows: 9:05

Self proclaimed nerd.

Nina Hubig: 9:11

At that time, no one knew the word I guess. I didn't look like a nerd. Right. I'm looking like a pretty woman. So no one would see me as an obvious nerd.

Andy Follows: 9:20

You were undercover, a covert nerd

Nina Hubig: 9:26

Right, exactly. And what happened basically, I had a best friend in elementary school like a female, and we were competing about who got the best grades. And she had a father who was an IT professor. So I was like, having fun in elementary school, but in high school, I was like, very shy and a bit lonely

Andy Follows: 9:52

Okay, so she had moved on

Nina Hubig: 9:54

To a girls only high school and I didn't go to girls only I did go to the one that was to five minutes from my home

Andy Follows: 10:01

Right. It sounds like she had quite an impact in terms of your approach to school having someone to compete with.

Nina Hubig: 10:09

Yeah, a little bit. So I compete for fun. I like it when it's fun. So if it's not mean, right, if people are mean, and it's about I just want to win, no matter how bad you feel about it, and how bad no matter how bad you are at it, it's different, but I have a competitive streak a little bit. I like it in a gamified way. And I enjoy it winning, of course, and I can be a good loser, too.

Andy Follows: 10:36

Yeah. Okay. What did you like to focus on? What were your favourite subjects?

Nina Hubig: 10:42

Well, I started reading [name] when I was in first grade,

Andy Follows: 10:48

what you have to explain what that is sorry.

Nina Hubig: 10:50

So [name] is a Western very famous in Germany, it's like, you know, there is a guy that usually the actually supposed to be the author, and he's going to the US like the wild, wild west. And he's experiencing all types of adventures. I was so excited to read this that I started loving to read, because in the beginning, when I learned how to read, I was like, not so boring. But at very fast. I went to quite high levels of books. Because for example, [name] is written in 1890. So it's very old books. I didn't know about it, like my grandmother gave it to me. So I was just reading it. And it's very easy to read. It's niot hard

Andy Follows: 11:37

but it captured your imagination.

Nina Hubig: 11:39

Yes, I can read books and see it like a film in front of me.

Andy Follows: 11:43

And that made you want to read more.

Nina Hubig: 11:46

I devoured it. And then I started devouring books, like there is no more. So I was always at home, reading books. From [name] I started to go into fantasy and into sci fi. So I was very much into books. very nerdy.

Andy Follows: 12:02

So a big part of your childhood was reading and imagining.

Nina Hubig: 12:05

Exactly, I was basically one of these children that tried to escape reality.

Andy Follows: 12:09

What else did you like doing at school?

Nina Hubig: 12:11

Because I was nerdy I was not much at school, I basically went home when I could I was living five minutes away from it and read my books.

Andy Follows: 12:20

At what point did you start thinking about what direction to go in? And whether you would go on to study? What might you study?

Nina Hubig: 12:28

In this case, I was always very clear what I wanted, I wanted to study, I thought the easiest way to study is get a high school degree directly. And I wanted to have the PhD after my first semester. So for me, I wanted to go to academia, very clearly very early on.

Andy Follows: 12:46

So you chose that you wanted when you were 14, you thought I want to pursue an academic career?

Nina Hubig: 12:52

Yes. Well, very early on. I also thought maybe I go into medicine, so I can help people. But then I thought like, No, I don't want to be a doctor, I don't want to work with patients, there's so much drama all the time, you have to you know, stay strong and be be very, your nervous system has to cope with this every day. And I was very sensitive, right? I would be very empathetic, I would not easily thrive in an environment that stresses me very much. So I thought I want to work with medicine. But as a researcher, as an IT researcher, I've work with the data, give me the data I have the time I can you know, take a look at things. It's good.

Andy Follows: 13:33

Wow, the level of self awareness that you have. And had then is phenomenal to think, right? I want to help people in medicine, but I don't want the stress on my nervous system of having to with my empathy, it will be just too traumatic to every day you have to live in that world. So here's a part of it where I will thrive.

Nina Hubig: 13:57

Exactly. And for me, I think it was the right decision. I was every time like he had gotten into medicine. Yes.

Andy Follows: 14:03

And did you go in that direction? And tell us a little bit about you know, what happened? What did you how did you navigate that?

Nina Hubig: 14:09

So one thing that I was aware of is part of me who wants to do medicine or who wants to do something big. This part wants to be recognised as something that's important to be with. Right. And it's not about medicine then and helping others right. So that's the point, right? You have to choose? Is it you who want something or do you do it for the others?

Andy Follows: 14:32

So is it a little bit like whether this is altruistic or whether there's some ego involved?

Nina Hubig: 14:38

I mean, likely with every decision, there is some ego involved and it's totally fine. But for me to go and towards medicine, something that's very hard for me, right because the system is how it is. It would mean to do something that is not fitting to me. It would be different if the system is different, right if it would have more time involved, if there would be more psychological help for the people. You know, it's different system a different money monetary system, but it's not good for me as it is right now. And my interest stays the same. I'm interested in medicine, I'm working with medical doctors, I have everything I want in that regard. But I don't have to work on the emotional side of things.

Andy Follows: 15:23

So what did you go to study?

Nina Hubig: 15:25

I studied computer science. So when I applied, well first, I must say I also went to a short period of not knowing what I wanted to. Because when I thought like, okay, medicine is not working out for me. It's not I'm not the best fit. I didn't know what to study. Because you don't then you don't study medicine, right? So half a year, one semester, I went, just to do anything that's interesting for me. And I studied religion, science, philosophy, and Japanology, because I watched a lot of Anime at that point. So I'm interested in religion, I was always good in it. I'm interested in philosophy, I'm good in it. And it's math. You know, it's very hard math, actually. And Japanology was like, you learn the language and a little bit of the culture. And I did this for half a year afterwards, I knew I want to have math back. And I want to have a job that you can actually earn money with, without selling without being a selling monster. Because if you're good in sales, yes, sure. You can earn money everywhere with whatever you study. But I'm not a sales monster. I'm a shy, sensitive woman

Andy Follows: 16:39

what sort of age were you when you did the six months?

Nina Hubig: 16:42

19

Andy Follows: 16:43

okay. I think it's a really good example of how we have to go and try things, you can't just think about them, you have to go and try them.

Nina Hubig: 16:49

And actually, it was my mom who told me, Nina, you're not staying home and just gaming World of Warcraft, you will study no matter what. And then you know what you want

Andy Follows: 17:02

Okay, so she had some guidance for you. At that point.

Nina Hubig: 17:07

My mom was very much like you do this. Tada.

Andy Follows: 17:12

So that helped you identify what you wanted to have in your life, if you like and what you didn't want to have

Nina Hubig: 17:18

Right. I mean, everything that I studied was interesting on the on the study level, right? But it wouldn't bring me forward in life. And it wouldn't challenge me. So the computer science was a challenge for me, I need a challenge I guess,

Andy Follows: 17:33

tell me a little bit about your computer science programme. And where did you do that? And what was what did you experience there? I'm thinking like, what was the gender split? Like then? And, you know, how did you find it?

Nina Hubig: 17:44

That's a very good question. Let me answer this. So I studied in core computer science, not bioinformatics, not economy infomatics, not media informatics, these were the other options. I studied the core, because several reasons one it was the higher challenge. Second, it was still a diploma, another bachelor Master System, because at that time, when I started, they just changed it to bachelor Master System. And I thought the other is more, you know, forgiving. If you're prefer to party over

Andy Follows: 18:17

you're a nerd who prefers to party.

Nina Hubig: 18:20

I'm a bit ambivert. So I can deal well with crowds, to some degree. So a little bit, I like to experience things a bit like sensation seeking. So yes, I'm a nerd, particularly during school times, but then I want more opened up. So nowadays, people would even talk about me as if I'm an extrovert. I'm not. I still need time for myself. But in the end, it was my shyness. It was a little bit. Maybe not just myself, maybe it was also fear involved. And I got during my studies I worked hard on myself. And I was like, yeah, little party Nina's coming out

Andy Follows: 19:03

Little party Nina's coming out. So what did what did let's before because we talked a little bit about what the nerd Nina was doing. So what did party Nina like doing?

Nina Hubig: 19:15

I mean, I did not change extremely. But I had friends in my studies in university. I studied in University of Munich, LMU, Ludwig maximilians University. It's an old, very ancient looking university, but the computer science there's like, you know, it's smaller. In core computer science. There are 200 people, and there were three woman. I was the only German woman the other two were Eastern Europeans. Wow. The The thing is, because there was media informatics, and bio informatics, they had a bit more women, right. I had fun. The people were very kind People the computer scientists. I love them very much. I love all the nerds. In computer science I it was the right study for me, I loved it a lot.

Andy Follows: 20:10

Right? You had selected an environment where you will be surrounded with people more like you.

Nina Hubig: 20:16

Exactly. I think for me, it was an amazing time to study. I enjoyed it, I had friends, close to me. And I like to learn all the magic of this box that creates the picture. So for me, I loved it a lot.

Andy Follows: 20:34

And had you left home to do this or were you still living at home?

Nina Hubig: 20:38

I lived a long time up until my PhD at home with just very few like I went to Canada I travelled. So for my master's thesis, I went to Canada, it was amazing. And to be a wild card to be basically, if you're a data scientist or working with data, right? You can work in all types of fields, and that fitted to my very open nature.

Andy Follows: 21:01

And so if we take the period from you starting LMU, to getting your PhD, how long was that

Nina Hubig: 21:08

the PhD I did get at TuM and I studied LMO, the diploma the masters level up, I think six years. So I took my time because there was no pressure to finish. And I had two to three side jobs I was happy with that, it wasn't stressful. People in Germany seem to enjoy studying. There is no tuition fee. That's something a lot of other countries might not know. So it's a free studying. And it's good. It's like a lot of fun. You will never be as young anymore, right?

Andy Follows: 21:49

Yeah, no, that explains a lot. I didn't realise it was free. So you did your diploma at LMU. And then is it did you say TUM?

Nina Hubig: 21:58

TUM, right? That's the best university in computer science in Germany, and that was for your PhD. And then I did my PhD. I partly actually I went towards medicine first. But the medicine I was at Helmholtz Centre. That's like Max Planck Institute. It's one of these more industrial types of research areas. It's a mix of industry and academia. And I was there two years, but under TUM, so the professor who does the give me the doctorate was at TUM. And then I switched TUM fully for the next two years. So I did my PhD very fast in four years, between the study I had, you know, it gave me time.

Andy Follows: 22:45

So what I'm trying to grasp is this period was six years for the diploma, and then four years for the PhD. So we're talking about 10 years of further education.

Nina Hubig: 22:55

Exactly.

Andy Follows: 22:56

Right. With some time in Canada, how long were you in Canada

Nina Hubig: 22:59

half a year,

Andy Follows: 23:01

and doing some jobs at the same time? So this was a mix of work and studies. Right.

Nina Hubig: 23:07

So what I did is I did databases and data science for the archaeologists. I did some Linux admin stuff. It was fun all the time. So I didn't see for me, this was one big package of, of learning. And also the Canada was was part of the six years. So I was basically studying during that time, I was able to see Canada, and a different school system. And in Canada, that was an even better party system. So we were out at like working hard partying hard. It was really cool.

Andy Follows: 23:41

Fabulous. And then is there a line you can draw where you feel like okay, my further education stopped and then I stepped out full time into into work environment.

Nina Hubig: 23:54

Yeah, so after my PhD, I went full time into work, right. And I first went to industry, for several reasons. Some of them were private, I didn't want to leave my boyfriend because for academia, we'll have to leave the city. And some of them were like, my mom was like, you know, you have to go to industry. So you'll learn the hard way. Stop being in the ivory tower. My mom is that type.

Andy Follows: 24:17

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Nina Hubig: 26:25

So I started at BMW, they were giving me an offer. And it was quite nice. So there is something I have to admit I was a bit afraid of industry, particularly these big companies. So when I started working at BMW, I was like, glad they wanted me. But I was also like very and afraid and oh my God, so many people and Oh, Open Office. And I had a boss who was coming from the BMW bank. But we were the excellency of machine learning cluster. So we were the more or less young people doing the new shit. And the boss was like someone who barely can code actually not at all. So I was like, the first time in a situation like that, that I had to talk to someone who was basically just on the human level. And I had no idea about corporate life. So I didn't know it was all about the human level. That's how you get to the management positions, whom you What sort of data were you getting and analysing? know, whom you talk to whom you go to lunch with. Having my first lunch meeting with my manager, I was like, I want to be a manager I want to lead. And I was like, at that time just observing. But I was lucky because I had a very wild colleague in front of me on my desk. That colleague was a PhD, like he was an economy computer science. So he knows how to talk. He was not just a nerd like me, he was like a talking nerd. And what happened was like, he had no fear, like he was fearless to the cause of the opposite of me, I was fearful. I don't want to have any problem on the social side, I'm afraid maybe we shouldn't talk to them yada, yada. And he was like, Nah, who cares about hierarchy? Let's first do and then apologise. I was like, okay, so what we did was wild. We, our jobs were like, easygoing, and it was too slow. And we didn't get the data. So what we did, we went out into the BMW world and started talking to the Disconnected Culture Club at that time. And then we got into the world of changing the culture of BMW, which was very managerial, very much talking about how management works and how management is and all this the all the, you know, it's like seven, I think areas, big areas. And we basically talked to everyone. And then in the end, we started talking to the C level, and then oh, C level, can we analyse your data? We were like this. And they were like, Yeah, sure, just get it. So our managers somewhere, like seven hops lower were like, what are you doing? And we're like, oh, we have the C level project now. But then the C level looks at us. And we're like, yeah, that's good, isn't it? We're like, no, they hated us then. So we had no respect for hierarchies, because we're nerds, right. We didn't understand hierarchies. We talk to everyone and then we analyse the data top down to create more transparency and trust. That's what we did. I think they were totally afraid of us. So the one that was a little bit critical was we analysed the data of the resort on when the C level meets, they have protocols, and we basically publish these protocols in a data sciency way to the lower levels. So it was a BI version of the protocols on the C level. So, you know, when there was a meeting with them meeting, they would talk about whatever it was at that time. I think Brexit was a big topic and how much money it would be when the band's or the in the factory is still in the UK and what happens with mini and Rolls Royce and yada, yada. So that was a big topic. And usually we there was no transparency way that BMW is very much manual. And it's an axle sheets and very hidden. And then you come with some novel methods like process mining and data science like like, what was what we were right, we were these new era, and coming into old era, without any respect for the old era. So we just published because they said yes. And I said, Okay, I mean, they said, okay, but it was a drama, it was a wind that the turned, because it's all politics. In the end, we had to discuss it with the [name] the workers councils, but they cannot say anything, if the C level says it's fine.

Andy Follows: 31:15

So you got you had more acceptance at the C level, it was the mid level that was more challenging,

Nina Hubig: 31:21

we learned it's always the middle and lower levels. So the reason I didn't get my data to do my job was because there was some mid levels, usually department leads not wanting to give me data from the other resource. So because they like to keep their power, which was the data. And I learned to break it by just asking the managers on top of it. And because I didn't care for the hierarchy, I just asked managers for hops on top of it, and then they got crazy, which is okay, I got my data. But, but I learned to be very uncaring and fearless. And in this hierarchies, I didn't change because I was like having enough they were changing into an agent mode. That wasn't my belief that it was helping the company, I learned that as a computer science, I cannot work in companies that work in this very old fashion.

Andy Follows: 32:13

Say a bit more about that. Nina? So is this about you personally and your preferences? Or is this about how the discipline works best?

Nina Hubig: 32:22

So I know a lot about HR right, I learned agile project management in doing my studies. I have a scrum master certification. For me, it was interesting that they wanted to do HR. And I like HR a lot. So I generally would say that was great. So our department field one was working in a different way anyway, right? We weren't not given BMW processes. We were wild ones. So the agile what was it called the agile change of the BMW environment made managers become product owners. So the non techs became people who had to write in the requirements in the backlog. So what my manager was good at, he was a good guy, right? He was not tech, but he was a good guy. And you didn't have that connection anymore. Right? What one part of the HR thing was, you didn't have your seat that was stable, like your office table, with the same person sitting in front of you all the time. Usually, every morning when I went into BMW, there were already people there, incoming. So I was walking through a path. And on the left side on the right, I said, hi, hi. Hi. And I felt like everyone is waiting and already coming in. Oh, it's amazing. So there was a connection and the build of friendliness and even like appreciation, right? Because you walk the aisle, if you can see it like that. And there are people saying hello. Every morning, there was a ritual. It was always the same people. Now you could have thought it could be different people and still work like that, because it's just the office, you can choose to choose where you want to sit. But it didn't work anymore. People didn't come to office anymore. They were remote. They were wherever I don't know what happened. So that was one thing that was a change in the agile environment. I totally understand it from the business perspective.

Andy Follows: 34:24

So this was a pre COVID This wasn't a COVID

Nina Hubig: 34:26

It was pre COVID. That was 2017 or 18. It likely got worse after COVID. Right.

Andy Follows: 34:33

So it was a new approach. And you lost that sense of walking down that aisle of friendly faces.

Nina Hubig: 34:40

Exactly, which is a connection to my group of people that work with me, right. So afterwards I was like going my path and doing remote or not doing remote. And it was okay. Sometimes of course I go to the team meetings but it's remote working then the end, you know, essentially because I could work wherever I wanted in BMW so where do I work where it's pretty and funky. There were different areas to work, right? If it was all over the place,

Andy Follows: 35:05

but you lost your connection,

Nina Hubig: 35:07

I lost my connections, I had my own friend sector, the guy in who was sitting in front of me was at this point, my friend, other friends, but they were even from different departments. So he went into strategy, data strategy, different resort, which was smart of him. And I went later on to academia. So I left first. But for me, the whole structure. I was basically lacking this regular meetings of the managers, so I could talk about human stuff, I learned politics in BMW, I became less nerdy, I started to understand people a little bit better. So for me, this was it was a great experience, right?

Andy Follows: 35:48

valuable experience,

Nina Hubig: 35:50

very valuable.

Andy Follows: 35:51

How long did you spend two years a bit more than two years? If you were able to have a conversation with yourself, just before you started there? What advice would you give yourself?

Nina Hubig: 36:03

I would have told myself to not be so scared. But that's always hard, right when you're scared but the scarediness in the beginning, lets me freeze and then I'm not daring to ask things or to do something. And I'm tend to feel I'm not good enough, I basically would have better talk to people who work in that environment already. Because it's so different from my normal experience of the world. It was like a puffy little own world, like world of its own. And after I knew the stereotype, and I could see and because I did go through the hierarchies, and I talked to Disconnected Culture Club and I did a deep reflection on BMW culture, I could see the schema reappearing behaviour from people that the longer you are in this environment, the more you become like it, particularly at the headquarter, it was interesting to see it, right. I didn't see it at all in people before I was on my tech side. But once I started looking at the system, I got so much insight.

Andy Follows: 37:08

Do you think that system is uniquely BMW? Or do you think that's a system that likely exists in the corporate world?

Nina Hubig: 37:15

Later as a freelancer of my company, I worked for Allianz and with Accenture, which is Accenture is maybe a bit different a consultant, right. But Allianz could be a bit similar in terms of corporate, but it's a digital product, which makes it a bit different. I saw it's similar, not the same, because it's Automotive is different. But the way Germans try to make themselves safe in the corporate world and how they stick to the corporate environment and how they do politics. It might have been more easygoing in Allianz, but it was still corporate yes is similar to some degree,

Andy Follows: 37:50

is it worth going into what some of those this system, the schema that you kind of worked out or observed? Is it worth going into some of that, or

Nina Hubig: 37:59

I enjoyed it for the short amount of time I was there, because it was all about human factor, right about politics, things I didn't know about, right? It was very valuable.

Andy Follows: 38:09

So you enjoyed the fact that it was stuff you didn't know about, you enjoyed the fact that you were learning exactly how to learn,

Nina Hubig: 38:15

I love to learn, that's maybe my type of personality. And I think learning the human is very important, it's very valuable. And learning how the corporate world works is very valuable. And to see the type of human that stays in the corporate world, and who they are, what they think and what they believe in. Right. And even in BMW, of course, there are several types, because depending on also the area you're in, but for me to understand it, and then see and reflect am I this, am I that right, because it's safe. For a German, there's a safety. It's a safety to be in such a big fat company doing a very nice product for many Germans a very beautiful product, very emotionally marketed, right? And then you have all the other opportunities because it's a big shot company, okay, no, this is known. And I understand it. For me, I prefer to live more free. But I can totally understand why people would choose, particularly when they have a big family and want to have a big family to be in big Corp.

Andy Follows: 39:22

So you'd spent 10 years really focused on the technical side in academia. And now you spent two years really learning the human side and noticing how people behave. So if you were advising someone who was going to get into that corporate world of how to behave to thrive in that world, would you have some advice for them?

Nina Hubig: 39:43

The thriving happens through the bonds and connections you can create with the other employees full stop. It depends on your social skills. And this is not taught in school and not taught in university and And It partly depends on how long you are in the company, which again, is how many people, you know how much they trust you. And if you're willing to do this, and later on play the game, if you want to talk about it like that, which is more important when you want to become a manager I wanted. So for me, BMW would have been more interesting if I would be a manager. So I tried to learn leadership stuff, right? I observed the leaders, I saw a lot of good leaders in BMW, they were limited because of the rules, which also limits their capability. But because they were thinking, and everyone was thinking so much about what managers should do and what they supposed to do and what they do wrong. You know, Germans think a lot about what people do wrong. But it's so typical in Americans, maybe not understand this, because when I talked about this with my students that I'm leading with them a leadership role with students and employees of mine, nowadays, at least in the US is not so easy to understand is when I worked for BMW, my boss told me Do not write emails on the weekend. So we had rule, right. I was like, totally against this, I was like, You should be happy when I want to work. Why are you not happy? I want to work, let me write emails on the weekend, I was like this, I want to work whenever I want to work, right. And I think that's still a good sign of me wanting to work. But what is a good sign as well on on the company side, because a lot of people maybe they want to work as a specific amount of time. And in Germany, I learned that supposedly, the boss should stop you from working too hard. It's an interesting concept, right? You should stop your employees from burning out, and you should care for them. So there is a rule that says, boss, you have to care for them, personally. So you have to tell them to stop working. And maybe my boss has told me all of this stuff. So he told me how what a good boss he is. That's very possible. But I thought about it. And I was like, it's not bad to also emphasise the balance between work and life. I have not seen people in BMW work as much as I did during my PhD, they were all very much doing good, but not too much. But see, if you'd look at Asia, or sometimes in the US, you have to work 24/7 At least how you have to seem like you work 24/7 You have to in Japan, you have to sleep in the company. So they know you worked so hard for the family company. And that's not the case in Europe anymore like this. So there is very strong tendency, and there was very strong fights during the Industrial ages to not work that much, and to not die during work, particularly in the factory. And this was something Europe was very, very strongly fighting for and other areas in the world. They don't even see it that way. yet. Maybe it's a process. It's different. It's a very different style of working.

Andy Follows: 43:09

I think it's helpful that you emphasise the human side and the importance of the human side and being able to navigate that if you want to be successful, if you want to thrive in an organisation like that. It's very common for people to think I do good work. You said at the beginning my coding is good. Why can't I be a manager? Why did you want to be a manager?

Nina Hubig: 43:33

Because I thought I did the long enough to, you know, be under someone and do whatever they want. So now I want to lead people and teach them?

Andy Follows: 43:40

What was it about leadership that appealed to you then? Was it that being able to teach

Nina Hubig: 43:45

exactly also? So I don't know, who have experience of coding? No. So for me, it's the say it's the thing that when I code, only thing I can do is coding, like the whole day I feel good, you know, then that's like, it's one focus. And it's very complex and detailed oriented. But when I have two hours for coding, and then I have a meeting and I have half an hour for coding, I have a meeting and then I have two hours for coding. And then I have a meeting, I cannot code at all. It's like da, I'm like sucking at this. And that switch between this very detailed, very focused very, very, the thoughts and need to be very attuned to the coding. And maybe it got better now through LLMs. But I either want to talk to people or I want to code and I did a lot of coding my life at that point in time. So I was either I want to code or talk to people

Andy Follows: 44:37

Sounds like you get into a state of flow when your coding

Nina Hubig: 44:40

ideally

Andy Follows: 44:41

and you need a good chunk of uninterrupted time

Nina Hubig: 44:45

Something you don't have in BMW work culture.

Andy Follows: 44:48

And what was your decision to how did you choose to leave and what was the conversation there and talk me through the transition? Yeah,

Nina Hubig: 44:58

so I was very lucky. key one, a part of me was always said that I didn't go to academia, I wanted to go to academia. And I was so clear about this. But I didn't see the path. Because when I applied towards academia, and it was just very little like there was an institute on to take on the university, and that was the connecting industry with academia. So you were a researcher, and that group lead is another reason I wanted to become a manager because I wanted to go into the leadership positions of academia. And that guy, I had, I think, the most negative experience in my whole work life during that interview, it was very unpleasant against my stereotype. Because when I said I want to become a professor in 10 years, that guy was basically so yelling at me and being mean. And I was too shocked to say anything other than like, I couldn't answer. So after this experience, I thought, I will not have the chance to go to academia, but I was sad about it. And I was bitchy about it. Because I must think our BMW i became him here, and everyone wants to be, but I don't want to be in academia. Luckily, for me, it was very, very lucky. I got to a fair, BMW fair people who are partying, of course, but there were also people from academia. Far, far, far away academia from the US, from Clemson University, somewhere South Carolina, I didn't even know where South Carolina is. I was like, Aha, South Carolina sounds very much like. And I was talking to this lady who was the chair at that point in time in Clemson University at the School of Computing. And she said to me, yeah, we have open positions go apply. And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. And that was the beginning of the US journey.

Andy Follows: 47:00

And how long ago was this then, Nina?

Nina Hubig: 47:03

Five years ago?

Andy Follows: 47:05

And how did you feel having thought that your hopes of getting into academia were lost? If you like, how did you feel when you had that conversation?

Nina Hubig: 47:14

I was hopeful and scared. So for me, fear is a big part of my life. Like I have so big fears. Like when I was 18, I couldn't go shopping. I was afraid to go outside. And I continued fighting myself by just doing it right. So exposure, I'm afraid of humans, you just do it, you go, I'm afraid of moving to the United States, you do it. But I was six, the six months. And that's my luck is I had time to think and plan and organise. So towards the end, I wasn't panicking anymore. But while I was knowing okay, they actually want me which I couldn't read, I barely believed it. Right. I was thought of this. Oh, my God, these mascots and the football. And they have such a nice culture. And it's so funny. And that was all this right? Clemson was and is such a cute little University, with all the typical American stuff going on. And for me, of course, this was a big adventure,

Andy Follows: 48:19

I can imagine. But you had six months to get your head around the idea.

Nina Hubig: 48:23

I was basically sleepless and panicky for a long time. And I was like, Oh, God, and I decided to do it when I did the interview. So when they would give me the Yes, I would want to do it. Because I saw the nature I saw the environment. And that was like, Okay, this is a once in a lifetime chance to go to academia, you will do this

Andy Follows: 48:44

It sounds like your mother.

Nina Hubig: 48:46

Exactly.

Andy Follows: 48:48

I've not met her, only from what how you, when you did an impression of her earlier,

Nina Hubig: 48:53

my mom for sure was very good, and trained me and being like using my will to reach something and not be stopped by anything. It's a part of me, right? But it's good that my mom has it to some degree as well.

Andy Follows: 49:09

So you have a very high self awareness of what might limit you what you're afraid of, but a very strong will to push through and put yourself in positions that even though you know you're going to be scared, uncomfortable,

Nina Hubig: 49:22

even when I fail, I do it. Because it's the exposure, the experience. And I prefer to live a little bit more adventurous than just be safe all the time.

Andy Follows: 49:36

So you pushed through you used your will to overcome your fear. And was this a situation where you actually had to go to because you're in Munich right now, but do you have to show up on day one and do your job and was this the first time you'd lead people because you talk about leading your students?

Nina Hubig: 49:56

Exactly. So you have it's a bit interesting So people started the very young age as an assistant professor, I started as an assistant professor at Clemson University, in School of Computing 2019 At the age of 34. And there were people even younger than me, being there already. So very young people, no leadership experience. I mean, I did lead a bit in BMW, I lead some external people like five to 10 of them. But it's not leading leading, right. I mean, you do talk about the requirements to the point of contact, but you don't give them money, you're not part of the budget, you're not in the actual lead, you know, in the power. It's basically more than a job. But in Clemson, I all of a sudden, was thrown into full blown management, so they give me money. This is the startup it was like 300 400k. So a lot of monies, it seems like, right for five years. And you have to hire people, you have to buy equipment, you have to create an office. Basically, it's your own startup, then you have to write grant proposals for governmental institutions like DARPA, NSF, NIH for medicine, and they give you sometimes millions, you know, and and you have to deal with this. And you have to work with that. So I had to deal with that. And to deal with the culture in the south of the US is very indirect. So a German like me, who says directly? I have a problem. And can you talk to me directly? They like, yeah, everything's good. You're doing amazing. I was a bit lost. And I had to learn fast. And you can only jump over your own culture to some degree, right?

Andy Follows: 51:53

And are you still there? Do you still have that

Nina Hubig: 51:55

I have it. But I'm changing right now. I survived role? for five years. But I was very lonely. I was very unhappy. Because I learned I needed actually that I show my work, and I work with others. And also this all the time, remote work. It makes me sad. I like it. It's convenient, right? And it's can be very fast. So you very fast, give feedback. But it's if it's just remote, as only me and my dog, no friends, no partner at that time. I was so sad. I learned I want to work with people more than just sitting in front of my computer. And don't get me wrong. I love remote work. I'm a nerd.

Andy Follows: 52:34

But you recognise there are other aspects to it and you have other needs,

Nina Hubig: 52:38

the need of connecting with people is strong in me.

Andy Follows: 52:42

So if you're bringing that to an end, now, what are you doing? Or what are you going to do?

Nina Hubig: 52:48

one reason I'm changing jobs is my mom got sick. So she has cancer. So I'm changing between Munich and the US. And if possible, I'm going to keep my professorship on the remote site, and I work with industry. With the company from my mom, I bought it from her by creating some large language models fine tuned and individualised for the company that likes to use them. Right now I'm working in telehealth for consent form. So we have a little bot, assume like I'm a bot right now you look at a bot, like 3d version avatar. And the person explains to you the consent forms in a quick and fast way, and then you can sign it correctly. So I'm working machine learning, right, mainly large language models right now. Yeah, that's what my company is doing and what I'm building up right now,

Andy Follows: 53:41

that sounds absolutely fascinating. And you're able to explain that in a way that I could actually understand. I get the idea of having a three dimensional bot, to help me fill in my consent forms.

Nina Hubig: 53:59

You know, that would be the idea would be to have something like a like a secretary that does everything but as a bot. We're not there yet fully. But it's it's going that direction and later on. So I think remote work is going to be so much more interesting once we own VR and that regard

Andy Follows: 54:15

Is there anything I haven't asked you? That means I've missed out on another nugget?

Nina Hubig: 54:21

Maybe I should mention my research area? Yeah. So in Clemson University, I changed from general data mining and data science, which is applied to medicine to explain ability of AI. And I did with that something very typical German, right. I'm working on transparency and trust now on the AI level. So in my whole environment at Clemson University, I was the first and so far as far as I know, the last one who did mainly that one.

Andy Follows: 54:51

I'm kind of curious, but I'm so far away from the world that you're so familiar with, explain to me like I'm a 10 year old

Nina Hubig: 55:00

you basically just said that when you said I, when

Andy Follows: 55:00

So that was your research piece at Clemson you explain it to me, I understand that well. So that's what explainability of AI is, basically, if you have lawsuits, and there's an AI involved, you want to know what the thing did. Right? Okay. And for that you need to open the hood of the car and look into the thing and say, Okay, how did it come to that decision? And I would basically claim that the moment you have a high stake decision, you have the need and the obligation to make it transparent for the human user, there is a way to check, why did that decision come from an explanation with it? So right now, for example, I did a DARPA proposal for scientific claim checking. And I did the X to the explainability part. So the LLM the chat GPT if you want it, it's not chat GPT the the, it explains why it comes to that decision. So there's a causality behind it in an ideal world, right? It's very tough, because causality and correlation are not very much mingling. But I guess I like the challenge again.

Nina Hubig: 56:15

The research piece, and the work, of course that I do for industry is connected.

Andy Follows: 56:21

Yeah. Are you happy for people to reach out to you if we put your LinkedIn details in the show notes to this episode?

Nina Hubig: 56:29

Absolutely. Please reach out to me. Very happy to connect.

Andy Follows: 56:33

Thank you very much for joining me, Nina. I was really looking forward to our conversation. I see you you're like a gateway to this world that I'm curious about and would love to understand more. So it's been an absolute privilege and a pleasure to hear more of your experiences. And so you're going to stay in academia, you're going to look for a position alongside your your own business.

Nina Hubig: 56:59

Exactly. I love academia. It's how it is I cannot change that.

Andy Follows: 57:03

Well, thank you again for joining me. It's been a pleasure. I look forward to staying connected and I wish you all the best with your search for a new position and growing your business.

Nina Hubig: 57:12

Thank you very much.

Andy Follows: 57:18

You've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me Andy Follows depending on your unique life experience where you find yourself right now and your personal goals. You'll have your own takeaways from Nina's story, some elements that stood out for me were she describes herself as a nerd, but party Nina emerges once she goes to university. She wanted to be in medicine but had the self awareness to know that she'd find it too stressful on the front line. Instead, she wanted to find a place for herself where she could help people by playing to her strengths. She enjoyed learning from her two years in the corporate world about the human side of the business, politics and the very strong focus on leadership skills and behaviours. But her true love was to get into academia. When she got the chance to go to Clemson she forced herself to overcome her fear. And finally, the importance of connection to her and how remote working took that away. If you'd like to connect with Nina, you'll find her contact details in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead parent or mentor or perhaps a friend of yours who you think would also enjoy listening? Thank you to Nina for joining me for our conversation. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode, ASKE Consulting and Aquilae And thank you to the CAREER-VIEW MIRROR team without whom we wouldn't be able to share our guests life and career stories. And above all, thank you to you for listening.